Survivor Rules: Thor's trial

[KingPhilipIII]

snip

I was the Queen, I'd already moved to ovi elsewhere when I hear shouts that a tallhost was trying to murder them through the hivemind.

[KingPhilipIII]

So retro-active punishment is now a thing for CM? That doesn't sound right.

Not claiming to speak for the staff involved, this is just my theory, but it's more along the lines of what would have been a warning or a shorter ban became a day ban because of previous negative behavior.

[Vampmare]

I don't really see the point of this thread.

Is it a guide to survivor? No, because it's dripping with sarcasm.
So acid goop? but it's posted in general discussion.
Maybe a discussion about what Survivors can do and can't do? No, doesn't say anything about that.
Posted a picture of a ban, maybe a ban appeal? No.

Seems to me like this is just an attempt to stir some drama. If you wanted anything meaningful you should have worded it differently.

[Herac]

My question is still: is it against the rules to kill a monkey?

Yes, and Farwas, Storks, Yirens, ect. As a xeno, survivor, marine or preditor. Doing this can and will get you banned.

The reason this rule exists is basically gameplay balance. The number of smallhosts spawned scale based on the server pop, and the round is balanced under the assumption that the xenos will get larva from all these hosts. The focus of the round is marines vs xenos not xenos vs survivors.

I'm all for changing this personally, but just be aware that devs will probably up the numbers of smalls under the assumption that 15-20 will be killed by sruvivors.

Maybe this should be added as a written rule then.

Absolutly agreed, honestly should be in the starting text you get when you spawn as survivor alongside 'You don't know where the xeno hive is'.

I once planned on doing this as a survivor because I thought it would be fun and I could actually have an impact on the round, before I heard it was against the rules. There are too many rules like this that most people don't realise they've even broken until they get bwoinked for it. Worse, there are things against the rules that people reguarly get away with breaking because a) even they don't know it's against the rules or b) basically no one else knows it's against the rules, incluinding people being victimised by it, and so they never ahelp.

[adrenalinetooth]

From the ruling we had that killing monkies can un-balance the round for xenos, yes it goes against lore and such, but game-balance is the main thing here.

If survivors go around killing all the wildlife then that will put the xenos had a huge disadvantage.

So this is another one of those unwritten rules that we never find out about until someone has to suffer a ban?

[FracturedAntler]

Yeah, it's kinda' fucked that this isn't even in the rules. Like, if you don't want it to happen put it as an example under the powergaming rule. Lots of survivors (myself included) thought it was okay because it technically isn't metagaming because your character should have this knowledge.

It's against the rules, technically, but there's nothing in the rules themselves that hint that it is.

[Torrentia]

Just put all these things under powergaming/balancing rules to make it easy for everyone to see and refer to.

Include some IC justification for kicks.

"No breaking into armories before drop because those weapons are for code red Almayer emergencies."

"As a survivor you are only aware of how Xenomorphs infect humans and do not wish to suffer the same fate (ie don't rush the hive). You have no reason to interact with wildlife."

"You don't know the situation on the ground so why would you dismantle the ship (your home) before drop?"

Or some crap like that.

Edit: Add "do not unwrench the CMP's fax machine because it's a tool for keeping a commander in check." viewtopic.php?f=63&t=18128#p213036

Edit 2: "Do not sit in a wheelchair even if your legs are broken. Do not touch the wheelchair, do not even look at the wheelchair." viewtopic.php?f=91&t=16093#p213724

[ThesoldierLLJK]

My personal opinion as a player:

What this thread should have been: Hey yeah I got banned for this, but can we have a serious discussion about killing wildlife and stuff so this doesn’t happen again, or can we discuss on why this rule shouldn’t be this way

[ThePiachu]

Not the first time it came up - viewtopic.php?f=64&t=17486 .

[Casany]

I’ve been here for two years, and I can say reliably that this has always been a rule.

But it’s never been written down. I found out about it from LOOC when I was talking about it like a year and a half ago, like November 2k16. And I was a staff member st the time, even then it wasn’t supper clear.

I will say, just as well that there was a time when survivors could rush MARs and shotguns, rush the hive and actually kill the entire hive before marines could land. It used to happen semi-often when LV was the only map, the fog wall wasn’t there and there were some p strong guns on the map. Of course now it doesn’t but that was also against the rules.

I’m a strong advocate for every rule that is commonly judged to be written down. Not everything, common sense rules that everyone would know except if they were deliberately griefing don’t need to be written. But rules like this, rules like how xenos can’t meta, all of that should be written down as examples.

I don’t get why this is so complicated literally just fucking type it down in the rules! It’s one of the easiest changes that can be fucking made, it’s just the people in charge being lazy. It’s not even a slippery fucking slope, what y’all are doing NOW is the slope. If it’s commonly agreed on by staff, write it down.

[Socket]

The reason this rule exists is basically gameplay balance. The number of smallhosts spawned scale based on the server pop, and the round is balanced under the assumption that the xenos will get larva from all these hosts.

I had that question at the back of my mind so thanks for addressing it.
Even with that that in mind though I think the amount of small hosts could be raised. I'm even considering starting my own thread for it.
My main arguments for it are:

• It would encourage a culture of the round start xenos to be over confident because they know they can respawn with extra nested sisters this would also reduce attrition for the marines.
• Survivors would get to actually see smallhosts getting captured (how rare is it a survivor sees this with the current build?), giving opportunities for the incident inspiring this thread to actually be allowed by the rules.
• In order to not make a forever respawning horde, the wildlife could have a chance of appearing infected when they are not (lore wise this is from mutations colony scientists encouraged in an attempt to develop face hugger immunity, giving a nice list of things for researchers to look into during the round)
• It actually challenges the decision making of the xeno player - do I have a drawn out fight with a survivor that could kill me/I might kill instead of infecting or do I grab the two smallhosts within line of sight and probably find at least a third elsewhere in that same amount of time?

[Chuckachu]

This is never a issue for most newb Surivors as their round follows this flow. Start =>Oh Found a flashlight. => Hramph *runner tackle*, *scream as your slashed until crit*=> Hramph *swallowed by runner* => Suffocate inside runner as they try to remember the layout of the pipes. => Splat as the runner spits out your usually dead body. Seen you 2-3 hours spaceman.

But for the Rambos and Ripley survivors I can see a SMALL amount of IC reason to take back your colony I'm just very confused on how you pull it off without powergaming. 1.)You have to know exactly were the best guns are despite usually not being a security guy, likely shotgun for spam stuns. 2.) Know they would have a Hive as you likely only know their lifecycle's starting points aka Egg to Chestburster and maybe Drone/Runner.

But killing Farwas and Monkeys alone, if one Survivor can kill enough to stop a hive from getting up to speed that is a balance issue with the now raised starting number of xenos. If one jackass with a shotgun can preemptively kill more xenos 80+ marines there is more to this than a quibly rules pillow fight. If Xenos start with say 9 larva and one queen, get 6 from fauna mobs, maybe 1 from survivors and its not enough to have a 'good' hive then there might be something needing to be tweaked.

[Build_R_]

Survivor seems to be a tricky role, one in which there are a lot of redlines where what you're doing can be deemed logical roleplay-wise but unfair balance-wise. Some clarification for what you shouldn't do (eg. becoming hostile after being rescued) should be easy to find on the wiki instead of trial and error or hearing about it from a disgruntled player.

[ThesoldierLLJK]

Survivor seems to be a tricky role, one in which there are a lot of redlines where what you're doing can be deemed logical roleplay-wise but unfair balance-wise.

It's more of a bonus hey lets see if I can play hide and seek and then get to roleplay role. The point of survivor isn't to kill the xenos, but to roleplay those Elieen Ripley escape from the xenomorph horror movie moments.

[yumantatee]

Honestly, I find it kinda dumb that whole unwritten rule thing is an actual... thing. Like it would save everyone time if the staff go just go "Well you broke rule X, where it specifically states do not fuck over the wildlife." I've gotten bwoinked for trying to catch up to my squad using the little cart on Ice Colony (I was warned that it is considered powergaming to use the cart to fight xenos and I ran into one on my sprint through the darkness) and up until that point I thought it was totally fine to use the cart for any purpose, combat included. I feel like if a ruling was made about this and similar topics (like the staff just did about monkey killing) and then thrown up on the wiki, it would be helpful for all involved.

[Poops_Buttly]

It's more of a bonus hey lets see if I can play hide and seek and then get to roleplay role. The point of survivor isn't to kill the xenos, but to roleplay those Elieen Ripley escape from the xenomorph horror movie moments.

Why limit it? If you wanna banzai the aliens that might make sense, maybe you’re revenge-crazed. Add a few more monkeys and let survivors hunt them to add a meta layer to the survivor experience and incentivize aliens to go after you. Let survivors shoot marines as long as it’s not aimless grief- who cares? 4 guys with what they can find on the map are gonna ruin a round? What happened to play for the RP not to achieve peak gameplay balance?

[solidfury7]

Unbiased PoV: In the past, monkey killing was not allowed since it disrupted the balance of the game, how that holds up today I'm not entirely sure. Assuming this rule is still in effect, this was a legitimate ban if we go by the book.

Besides that, it's silly to me.

El is right.

I remember when survivors used to actually used to kill all the monkeys and/or rush the hive and more often than not, you'd end up wiping the hive with a few robust survivors.

As a result of that, Survivors got nerfed heavily and rules were changed, some of you will still remember how survivors were unplayable (or at the very least, unwinnable) for a good year or so.

It may be worth exploring some potential changes (such as more monkeys but removal of the rule) but I'd rather not reopen the flood-gates again without some much needed tweaking and reworking.

[Casany]

It may be worth exploring some potential changes (such as more monkeys but removal of the rule) but I'd rather not reopen the flood-gates again without some much needed tweaking and reworking.

But it isn't even explicitly IN the rules, which is why this is a thing to fucking begin with.

Add the clause into the fucking rules and this won't happen
Or don't, and ban more players because even tho they read the rules it wasn't there so there is no way they coulda known.

[Gnorse]

we need this stuff written down. Sure it might be obvious to those of us that have been here for some time but what about the new guys ?

[ThesoldierLLJK]

we need this stuff written down. Sure it might be obvious to those of us that have been here for some time but what about the new guys ?

Someone who is new will probably just get a first time PM and warning note.
In Thor's situation there were many other factors that lead to a 3 hour ban being issued.

[Loco52]

Someone who is new will probably just get a first time PM and warning note.
In Thor's situation there were many other factors that lead to a 3 hour ban being issued.

Imagine a judge jailing people for failing to have enough common sense as to know what they're doing is a crime even though it's not written in the Penal Code.

That's how bad this is.

[Casany]

Someone who is new will probably just get a first time PM and warning note.
In Thor's situation there were many other factors that lead to a 3 hour ban being issued.

But why do this when you can just oh I dunno FIX THE RULES instead of punishing new players for rules that aren’t WRITTEN DOWN. Come on

[ThesoldierLLJK]

But why do this when you can just oh I dunno FIX THE RULES instead of punishing new players for rules that aren’t WRITTEN DOWN. Come on

Make a gitlab suggestion for a balance rule, we've suggested a "Don't screw with the balance by doing XYZ rule" behind scenes

[awan]

But why do this when you can just oh I dunno FIX THE RULES instead of punishing new players for rules that aren’t WRITTEN DOWN. Come on

Because there is a limit to what we want to write down. Imo this is something that should be written down yes. Together with the few other unwritten rules.
There is a limit though. I have punished people for intentionally driving over people with the tank even though their intentions were the best intentions it is still something not written in the rules and it won't be because do we really have to tell people not to run over people with the tank?. Even if we did add it. 1. You will never have a complete set. 2. People will use it as an excuse to argue about rules. 3. As evident by this thread some people do not even understand why certain things are rules. 4. The bigger your rules the less likely people read them all. 5. The more rules the harder it is to enforce in general.

[awan]

You know what ill give you 20 rulings/unwritten down rules.
What do you think should be specifically mentioned in the rules?

1. Larva should not try to go up to the Almayer. This (almost) never works and is plain suicide. (if you die while trying this you risk a jobban.)
2. A doctor cannot replace a patient their organs with artificial ones if they are fine. (Even if the player consents to it.)
3. You cannot put the corpses of marines, xeno's or monkeys on the lz so the dropship gibs them when it comes down.
4. You cannot turncoat/pretend to be from/dress up like another faction to kill people from that faction.
5. Only the person who is actively getting a BE can directly intervene. (Unless the rest starts a mutiny about it.)
6. If you are being griefed you should ahelp and not fire back.
7. Another player cannot order you to violate server rules.
8. A (c)mp cannot get another player to break marine law as their proxy. (Mp's can break marine law but that might be changed again. The cmp cannot still.)
9. You cannot use binoculars in the tank to fire further.
10. Friendly xeno's is not ok.
11. You cannot make your hive on the lz.
12. You should not play to lose. (ex. first deployment at 12:50.)
13. Messing with telecoms by changing the settings on machines is forbidden. (Idk if it is still so was always the case.)
14. You should not lie against staff.
15. Doxxing other players or staff gets you a punishment.
16. Preds cannot toggle their self destruct to save themselves from xeno's. (Also not sure on the exact ruling. Or if it was still a rule.)
17. Donator items should not be used by players other then the donator.
18. You cannot attack/delimb nested infected hosts without the explicit permission from the queen.
19. The queen should not straight up order xeno's to suicide.
20. You are responsible for what happens on your account. The fact that someone else did it on your ckey means nothing to us.

now these are just 20. Some happen a lot. Others less so. But many of them should be quite well known and even common sense.