Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

[Cleeve]

I was playing as XO Frenkie 'Unga' Morouse today and I got in situation, when, after the full evac some group of marines came to CIC and one marine started killing me with punches. I started shooting back and got eventually got shot.

Log fragment below

► Show Spoiler

CPL Walter 'Hollywood' Colt says, "Dude."
CPL Cassimir 'Ugly' Taylor asks, "What is the plan?"
CPL Walter 'Hollywood' Colt says, "103, -97."
PFC Bill 'Bill' Mason [Charlie (Mar)] says, "Unknown, massive brute damage but they were in nex"
CDR Frenkie 'Unga' Morouse says, "I already announced it"
ENS Lucas Grayer [Command (PO)] says, "Sir wouldn't they be swarming with whatever we gott'a kill? Not a great idea to bring 'ehm back here."
CDR Frenkie 'Unga' Morouse says, "Leave the CIC"
CPL Cassimir 'Ugly' Taylor says, "He just gave you OB coords"
CPL Natalie Shaner [Command (Bravo aSL)] says, "We could just OB shit out of them if anyone got cords of LZ of course"
CPL Cassimir 'Ugly' Taylor asks, "Can you fire at them?"
CPL Walter 'Hollywood' Colt says, "Ok retard."
ENS Lucas Grayer [Command (PO)] says, "Dusting for another fly by."
CPL Walter 'Hollywood' Colt says, "You are uselss."
SGT Alfonso Garbonso says, "Ow"
Cassimir 'Ugly' Taylor points to Gordon Franks

Command Announcement

MARINES!
I am returning the Alamo shipside. Be prepared to clear it from alien wildlife.

XO Frenk Morouse


CPL Natalie Shaner [Command (Bravo aSL)] says, "And then call it back up"
CPL Walter 'Hollywood' Colt says, "Thanks for not doing shit all fucking op."
CPL Cassimir 'Ugly' Taylor says, "Fire OB"
CPL Walter 'Hollywood' Colt says, "Dumb shit."
CPL Cassimir 'Ugly' Taylor says, "103, -97"
SGT Alfonso Garbonso says, "Rude words"
CDR Frenkie 'Unga' Morouse says, "Detain CPL Walter 'Hollywood' Colt for insulting me"
CDR Frenkie 'Unga' Morouse [Command (XO)] says, "Detain CPL Walter 'Hollywood' Colt for insulting me"
SSGT Claire Velianne [Command (MP)] says, "There's DEFINITELY the fuckers on that thing."
Cassimir 'Ugly' Taylor points to Gordon Franks
Walter 'Hollywood' Colt punched Frenkie 'Unga' Morouse!
Your right leg hurts.
Walter 'Hollywood' Colt punched Frenkie 'Unga' Morouse!
CPL Natalie Shaner [Command (Bravo aSL)] asks, "Did you recall it, XO?"
Walter 'Hollywood' Colt punched Frenkie 'Unga' Morouse!
You hug Walter 'Hollywood' Colt to make him feel better!
CPL Cassimir 'Ugly' Taylor says, "FIRE IT NOW"
Walter 'Hollywood' Colt tried to punch Frenkie 'Unga' Morouse!
Walter 'Hollywood' Colt punched Frenkie 'Unga' Morouse!
CPL Cassimir 'Ugly' Taylor says, "FIRE IT YOU USELESS MORON"
You fire the я88 Mod 4 combat pistol!
The я88 Mod 4 combat pistol is not ready to fire again!
The я88 Mod 4 combat pistol is not ready to fire again!
You fire the я88 Mod 4 combat pistol!
Walter 'Hollywood' Colt is hit by the armor-piercing pistol bullet in the chest!
The я88 Mod 4 combat pistol is not ready to fire again!
The я88 Mod 4 combat pistol is not ready to fire again!
Your groin hurts.
You fire the я88 Mod 4 combat pistol!
The я88 Mod 4 combat pistol is not ready to fire again!
The hull is damaged by the armor-piercing pistol bullet!
The я88 Mod 4 combat pistol is not ready to fire again!
SSGT Claire Velianne [Command (MP)] says, "It's on the way up with friends right now."
You fire the я88 Mod 4 combat pistol!
The armor-piercing pistol bullet misses Walter 'Hollywood' Colt!
The я88 Mod 4 combat pistol is not ready to fire again!
You fire the я88 Mod 4 combat pistol!
The я88 Mod 4 combat pistol is not ready to fire again!
You enable the я88 Mod 4 combat pistol's burst fire mode.
You fire the я88 Mod 4 combat pistol!
The hull is damaged by the armor-piercing pistol bullet!
The hull is damaged by the armor-piercing pistol bullet!
Walter 'Hollywood' Colt is hit by the armor-piercing pistol bullet in the left hand!
The я88 Mod 4 combat pistol is not ready to fire again!
You hear a loud cracking sound coming from Walter 'Hollywood' Colt!
CPL Walter 'Hollywood' Colt screams!
You fire the я88 Mod 4 combat pistol!
Cassimir 'Ugly' Taylor is hit by the armor-piercing pistol bullet in the head!
The armor-piercing pistol bullet shrapnel sticks in the wound!
CPL Cassimir 'Ugly' Taylor screams!
The я88 Mod 4 combat pistol is not ready to fire again!
You fire the я88 Mod 4 combat pistol!
Walter 'Hollywood' Colt is hit by the armor-piercing pistol bullet in the right hand!
Walter 'Hollywood' Colt is hit by the armor-piercing pistol bullet in the left hand!
The я88 Mod 4 combat pistol is not ready to fire again!
Walter 'Hollywood' Colt fires the я88 Mod 4 combat pistol (Wielded)!
The armor-piercing pistol bullet narrowly misses you!
Walter 'Hollywood' Colt fires the я88 Mod 4 combat pistol (Wielded)!
You hear a loud cracking sound coming from Walter 'Hollywood' Colt!
CPL Walter 'Hollywood' Colt screams!
Walter 'Hollywood' Colt fires the я88 Mod 4 combat pistol (Wielded)!
You are hit by the armor-piercing pistol bullet in the right leg!
The я88 Mod 4 combat pistol is not ready to fire again!
You fire the я88 Mod 4 combat pistol!
Walter 'Hollywood' Colt is hit by the armor-piercing pistol bullet in the chest!
Walter 'Hollywood' Colt fires the я88 Mod 4 combat pistol (Wielded)!
The armor-piercing pistol bullet narrowly misses you!
Walter 'Hollywood' Colt is hit by the armor-piercing pistol bullet in the chest!
яYou hear a sickening cracking sound coming from Cassimir 'Ugly' Taylor's face.
The hull is damaged by the armor-piercing pistol bullet!
You unload the я88M4 AP magazine (9mm) from the я88 Mod 4 combat pistol.
The armor-piercing pistol bullet misses Walter 'Hollywood' Colt!
The я88 Mod 4 combat pistol is not ready to fire again!
The hull is damaged by the armor-piercing pistol bullet!
You hear a loud cracking sound coming from Walter 'Hollywood' Colt!
CPL Walter 'Hollywood' Colt screams!
You hear a loud cracking sound coming from Unknown (as Cassimir 'Ugly' Taylor)!
CPL Unknown (as Cassimir 'Ugly' Taylor) screams!
Something feels like it shattered in your right leg!
CDR Frenkie 'Unga' Morouse screams!
... You can almost hear someone talking ...

Shortly after that I got warned and had some discussion with moderator Taketheshot56.

Below the edited log fragment, which contains discussion.

► Show Spoiler

Moderator PM from Taketheshot56: Mind explaining what that was?

PM to Taketheshot56: Marine started punching me, I started shooting back as answer. Walter 'Hollywood' Colt punched Frenkie 'Unga' Morouse!

Moderator PM from Taketheshot56: Yea okay have you read our rules?

PM to Taketheshot56: Yes

Moderator PM from Taketheshot56: So why did you decide to improperly escalate?

PM to Taketheshot56: I didn't know it was an improperly escalation. I thought it was reasonable reaction when someone tries to kill you.

PM to Taketheshot56: Selfdefense measures.

Moderator PM from Taketheshot56: Punching you several times doesnt permit you to lay into him with a gun, period.

Moderator PM from Taketheshot56: Ill be letting you up here but be mindful this will be your only warning for things like this.

PM to Taketheshot56: Punching kills too. Also, I am playing as Executive Officer, which is superior rank to some PFC. The last thing I want is to let some PFC, who dared to invade into CIC let me punch unpunished.

PM to Taketheshot56: Is that marine your friend?

Moderator PM from Taketheshot56: It doesnt matter, the rules are the rules, you are not permitted to shoot someone when punching you several times, there are plenty of proper responses, call MPs, punch back. But not shooting, no he is not my friend.

PM to Taketheshot56: Ok, how should I act in this situation?

Moderator PM from Taketheshot56: I just told you, call the MPs, punch him back. But dont shoot him.

PM to Taketheshot56: Well, he could kill me with those punches. And my role is not some basic marine. I play as Executive Officer, on whose decisitions depends the fate of Almayer, the big USCM ship. I can't let some marine halt the entire operation because he wanted to punch me.

Moderator PM from Taketheshot56: Indeed, which is why you call the MPs and deal with the situation without breaking the rules, the situation is clear cut my friend, you broke the rules by shooting him, it doesnt matter what the roles are, its all the same.

PM to Taketheshot56: And, he could kill me even while I was calling the MP, which he was doing.

Moderator PM from Taketheshot56: Punching you five times doesnt kill you. Regardless you have been warned and noted, dont do it again.

PM to Taketheshot56: The only rules, which are applied to this situation are rules #14 Lethal Force and #3. Don’t be a dick, right?

Moderator PM from Taketheshot56: Rule 14 is yes.

PM to Taketheshot56: He punched me only five times, because I started shooted. He may shooted me more if I was calling the MP instead.

Moderator PM from Taketheshot56: If he had killed you, you couldve ahelped that he broke the rules, a fist fight is not eligible exscuse for you to light someone up. End of story.

PM to Taketheshot56: And the rule 14 claims that "Do not attack another player without a legitimate, explainable roleplay reason that could be applied in a similar, real-life scenario." which I think I did. In real-life scenario, high rank commander wouldn't wait to be killed.

Moderator PM from Taketheshot56: A fist fight does not suddenly escalate into a gun fight.

Moderator PM from Taketheshot56: The rules are the rules, you are still suseptable to them if you are the XO.

PM to Taketheshot56: What do you think the high rank commander would do in real-life?

Moderator PM from Taketheshot56: Call the MPs.

PM to Taketheshot56: I didn't say, that XO is above the rules.

PM to Taketheshot56: While being punched by marine, presumably to death?

PM to Taketheshot56: Because I was punched several times and I wasn't sure that marine would stop.

Moderator PM from Taketheshot56: In a real life military situation, because ive seen guys punch officers after having a breakdown, they dont withdraw their sidearm and shoot the soldier.

You were punched a total of five times. You had plenty of options.

You decided to break the rules by improperly escalating the situation. You have been warned for the rulebreak.

PM to Taketheshot56: In real life situation that you are implying you are usually got punched once. Not several times.

Moderator PM from Taketheshot56: The situation is over, have a CM day!

PM to Taketheshot56: You hit once and you hit hard. If you hit more then once it's not a breakdown, it's killing.

PM to Taketheshot56: I don't like this warn. I am putting this on forum, because I want to know what other members of community think about this.

Moderator PM from Taketheshot56: Feel free my friend, feel free. Have a good day.

PM to Taketheshot56: You too, have a good day.

Moderator PM from Taketheshot56: if you feel you were improperly noted or warned, the best course of action is to file a staff report, available on the forums.

PM to Taketheshot56: At first I'll try to discuss this situation on forum and see what other members of community think about this. Then I'll consider filing a staff report.

Moderator PM from Taketheshot56: Ensure you wait till the round ends.

What do you think about this situation? Should the high ranking officer just call the MP and start some funny fist fight?

[MattAtlas]

I mean it's literally in the rules that you don't escalate like that.

Call the MPs.

[Cleeve]

I mean it's literally in the rules that you don't escalate like that.

Call the MPs.

The rule 14 states that "Do not attack another player without a legitimate, explainable roleplay reason that could be applied in a similar, real-life scenario." which I think I did. In real-life scenario, high rank commander wouldn't wait to be killed.

[taketheshot56]

He didnt start killing you with punches. He punched you a total of 5 times before you fired about 10 rounds of mod88AP into him.

You broke the rules. There were plenty of other ways to deal with that situation.

[Cleeve]

He didnt start killing you with punches. He punched you a total of 5 times before you fired about 10 rounds of mod88AP into him.

You broke the rules. There were plenty of other ways to deal with that situation.

Yes, he punched me a total of 5 times before I started firing. And if I didn't fire he may punched me more which would result in killing me or seriously injuring. I didn't have time to ask him like: "Yo bro, are you killing me or just punching?". And I am 100% sure that nobody would act in such way in real-life scenario.

[MattAtlas]

Yes, he punched me a total of 5 times before I started firing. And if I didn't fire he may punched me more which would result in killing me or seriously injuring. I didn't have time to ask him like: "Yo bro, are you killing me or just punching?". And I am 100% sure that nobody would act in such way in real-life scenario.

Punches do like 5 brute, bro. Even less than that because of your uniform acting as armour.

[CABAL]

It's goes like that: He punches you, you punches him back (or trying to escape, but we are talking about "Lethal Force"), then he gets the knife and stabs you, then you can go knife yourself and in the end firearms are allowed. Personal Defence.

This is proper escalation.

[RobBrown4PM]

To give you an example, I was punched and crowbarred roughly 20-30 times and was put into crit. I hadn't really been fighting back, but I knew if I let the go they were going to kill me, so I drew my side arm and started shooting.

Getting punched 5 times is no where near cause enough to put slugs into someone.

[Szunti]

Welcome to CM, where as an officer you are called Sir Moron and privates punching you are ordinary.

[Simo94]

the proper escalation is punches>melee weapon>guns, u should of called the MPs or used a melee weapon.

[ThesoldierLLJK]

the proper escalation is punches>melee weapon>guns, u should of called the MPs or used a melee weapon.

Pretty much this

If you got beaten to death when you do not fight back, and there wasnt a good RP reason behind it, ahelp it.

[Sulaboy]

the proper escalation is punches>melee weapon>guns, u should of called the MPs or used a melee weapon.

This isn't directed at you but rather some insight into proper escalation.

There is more to improper escalation than just this. The fact that you are following this progression does not absolve your from other rules. If someone insults you and a fist fight occurs you have a duty to stop fighting if the other is incapable of defending theirselves, you cannot beat someone into paincrit then death without some good RP reason for doing so.

[Cleeve]

To give you an example, I was punched and crowbarred roughly 20-30 times and was put into crit. I hadn't really been fighting back, but I knew if I let the go they were going to kill me, so I drew my side arm and started shooting.

Getting punched 5 times is no where near cause enough to put slugs into someone.

I got punched 5 times only because before the 6-th time I started shooting. I didn't know for sure, if marine will stop punching me.
In real-life situation if you have a gun and somebody will start punching you then you will shoot at him. However, here the only legit option for self-defense is punching back which I think is unrealistic.

[CABAL]

I got punched 5 times only because before the 6-th time I started shooting. I didn't know for sure, if marine will stop punching me.
In real-life situation if you have a gun and somebody will start punching you then you will shoot at him. However, here the only legit option for self-defense is punching back which I think is unrealistic.

In most countries you would be punished as a criminal for "inproper self-defence". Even as "real life" scenario, you are trained marine and your attacker is also trained marine. He is not boxer, or some kind of martial artist, you have fair chances against him in fist fight. Just becouse marine owns a gun doesn't mean it's reasonable to shoot at anyone who pushes/punches you few times too much.

I had couple situations where I had to use gun against other marine, but I never draw firearm first, yet I holstered it the last usually. No bans, or notes. It's not that hard to understand and live with that rule.

[Jonesome]

Nex time, flash him, zip cuff him, and bring him to brig.

[forest2001]

Looking at the scenario you provided it is clear you escalated far too rapidly. Even if you could argue validation to shoot them you needn’t have continually done so. Disabling someone is far preferable to execution and it is likely that your continual firing led to counter attack and your getting shot. After the very first punch you should have called an MP.

[Karmac]

ok here's the situation bucko:
video games aren't always realistic, this one is about as unrealistic as they come what with the space aliens and moderators expecting people to follow rules

so at the end of the day if you haven't properly read the rules and a moderator tells you that you fucked up, you don't have a leg to stand on. this guy punched you five times, you didn't ask him to stop or anything and jumped straight to "I'm going to kill this man". it doesn't work like that around here, hopefully you've figured that out by now.

[Cleeve]

In most countries you would be punished as a criminal for "inproper self-defence". Even as "real life" scenario, you are trained marine and your attacker is also trained marine. He is not boxer, or some kind of martial artist, you have fair chances against him in fist fight. Just becouse marine owns a gun doesn't mean it's reasonable to shoot at anyone who pushes/punches you few times too much.

It wasn't "marine vs marine" situation, it was "marine vs executive officer" situation. Also, it was just after Alamo started unscheduled drop on Almayer, so the situation was critical and required immediate action.

Nex time, flash him, zip cuff him, and bring him to brig.

Does the Executive Officer have access to this things? And should he walk with them to be prepared for such situation?

ok here's the situation bucko:
video games aren't always realistic, this one is about as unrealistic as they come what with the space aliens and moderators expecting people to follow rules

so at the end of the day if you haven't properly read the rules and a moderator tells you that you fucked up, you don't have a leg to stand on.

I think that this rule may be interpreted differently in this situation.

this guy punched you five times, you didn't ask him to stop or anything and jumped straight to "I'm going to kill this man". it doesn't work like that around here, hopefully you've figured that out by now.

I think that asking a man to stop killing you is stupid and unrealistic. But as I see, if you can't shoot him back then other choice should be directly ahelping.
And I didn't jump straight to "I'm going to kill this man". If, during shooting, he would stopped fighting then I would stop shooting too.

[Karmac]

I mean clearly you did jump to "I'm going to kill this guy" because you pulled a gun on him and started firing without saying "Hey maybe put the fists away or I might start shooting", because that would be "too unrealistic" I guess.

You're just making it painfully obvious you've got no understanding of the server rules and are an absolute moron. I spose that makes me a moron too for thinking I could teach a blind man to read something other than braille.

[taketheshot56]

Look my friend. When the staff tells you, that you are wrong. And the players tell you that you are wrong. You are wrong. The only "misinterpretation" was that of you thinking that an executive officer could break the rules.

[starmute]

Get out of the situation and call the MPS. You always have a choice to not escalate the situation.

[Cleeve]

I mean clearly you did jump to "I'm going to kill this guy" because you pulled a gun on him and started firing without saying "Hey maybe put the fists away or I might start shooting", because that would be "too unrealistic" I guess.

I understand that but I didn't jump to 'I'm going to kill this guy'. I am jumped to 'I am going to defend myself with a gun because he may kill me with the punches'. That's realistic. He, could just say 'Stop shooting' too which he didn't.

You're just making it painfully obvious you've got no understanding of the server rules and are an absolute moron. I spose that makes me a moron too for thinking I could teach a blind man to read something other than braille.

I hadn't understanding of interpretation of the server rules by staff. Now I think I do - forget roleplay, next time just ahelp.
Also, I agree with you that you are moron and disagree with you that I am moron.

Look my friend. When the staff tells you, that you are wrong.

The staff may be wrong too. That's why I created this discussion instead of creating the report on staff.

And the players tell you that you are wrong. You are wrong. The only "misinterpretation" was that of you thinking that an executive officer could break the rules.

I didn't use the word "misinterpretation", you are wrong. Also, I didn't thought that executive officer can break the rules, you are wrong here too.
As you may see, the staff can be wrong too.

[Grimreaperx15]

If you really think the moderator was incorrect, the appropriate course of action is to file a Staff Report. It'll be reviewed by Head Staff and a final ruling will be made on if they were wrong or not.

I can tell you that it will almost certainly be ruled that they were right, and you improperly escalated, but you really should file a report if you disagree.

[Kineem]

I think that asking a man to stop killing you is stupid and unrealistic.

asking a man not to kill you is in fact pretty normal both in real life and in game

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

Chief, you could've just asked the dude "Hey fuckhead, stop punching or I'm giving you lead". If you wonder why the other marine didn't do the same when you were shooting him, he probably was in shock+in-game pain crit. You took 5 punches and you went "That's enough I'm just gonna whip out my pistol and shoot you" when you were an XO, aka someone actually trained and actually went through a lot of commanding experience and actually knew how to adapt to marines being shitheads.

Not only has staff told you that you're wrong, but many players have also told you that you're wrong. If you don't agree with the decision, the staff report section is a thing. Right now you're just arguing yourself into a dead end.

Also, do note this part in the rule :