MarpleJones - BE guidelines

[Loco52]

Then that must explain it. God, that was not the finest thing I've done. I'm terribly sorry, in that sense.

I dont want you to get de whitelisted for a mistake, that's far from what I want. I just wrote it to set a precedent to avoid future BEs like this.

If the situation is chaotic, many players are involved, just wait until you can talk one on one with the person you're going to BE for clarification. In my specific case my chat was clogged with

- Chatter
- Disarm intents
- FF logs (we mods always have FF logs toggled)

And asides from that I was still trying to arrest which meant it was impossible for me to ever notice anything asides from the SG who was being a physical barrier to my arrest. I was fully aware players were gonna interfer because FOB arrests are always like that thus why I didnt go rambo mode tazing anyone who interferred,what I didn't expect was the BE I at the time felt came out of now here (now I see in logs you actually tried to talk to me and it wasnt an asspulled BE)

Marple is not a bad CO, I just want to high light to the playerbase that BEs like this can be avoided and have to be avoided.

[Arbs]

There's a few things I disagree here from both the MP side as I see different ML instructions not being followed properly and the situation could've been better handled.

How did you move to a safe area, when just seven seconds later you sprayed an Elite Praetorian, a T3 caste with a burst in -central jungle-?

[13:21:52]SAY: Vaughn 'Hothead' Isemann/Loco52 : I'm back to a safe area
[13:21:59]ATTACK: Vaughn 'Hothead' Isemann (loco52) shot the Elder Praetorian (MO-227-S3) () with a rifle bullet in the Central Jungle (JMP)
[13:21:59]ATTACK: Vaughn 'Hothead' Isemann (loco52) shot the Elder Praetorian (MO-227-S3) () with a rifle bullet in the Central Jungle (JMP)
[13:22:00]ATTACK: Vaughn 'Hothead' Isemann (loco52) shot the Elder Praetorian (MO-227-S3) () with a rifle bullet in the Central Jungle (JMP)

You also lethaly engaged the arrest target; Were lethals permitted? Did this also show up on your FF logs?

[13:23:57]ATTACK: Vaughn 'Hothead' Isemann (loco52) shot Oscar Kellogg (mobgg) with a rifle bullet in the Robotics (JMP) (PM)

You punched an unrelated person.

[13:24:04]ATTACK: Loco52/(Vaughn 'Hothead' Isemann) punched Oshuka1997/(Gunner Finlay) at (55,54,1) (JMP)

And on top of all you used AOE means in the limit of the outermost outpost, affecting unrelated people including the CO. And as far as I'm concerned you need to make your intent to arrest someone clear and informing them of their charge, before moving in.

You yourself have disregarded instructions outlayed in marine law, and put everyone in danger had that praetorian decided to come back for another stroll for instance.

Arrests in the Area of Operations are something you should be using extreme caution in as it's not something you'll be getting far by pushing your way through and disrupting the whole area.

The BE fulfills the criteria that you were indeed a threat to persons around that area, whether intentionally or not.

Threat to persons. Credibly threatening and attempting to do harm to the CO or to someone while in the CO's presence.

And there's another issue I see here Crimson;

During this, we found out that the Captain had pardoned the wanted individual (who was a reoffender of major crimes) and the wanted individual was looting the BE'ed MP.

The XO in the CIC was told to elevate to a blue alert due to this Marine Law issue and he refused at first, and was eventually threatened with a possible arrest for insubordination if he did not comply, as this alert was related to marine law.

I hardly believe how the XO could be arrested on insubordination charges, as I hate to read it to you but based on the charge's description it explicitly says "Failing to follow a lawful order from a superior." And the XO has a Commander rank while the CMP is a Lieutenant Commander. I don't see where this order from a superior came in, for you to elevate to Blue so that you could carry lethals. This is just you putting pressure on the XO who is a superior officer in the chain of command itself, by false threats.

So far we have no information whatsoever that the CO pardoned the individual in question, and that's what I would like to know from you and Marple. As a matter of fact we don't even know the charges of the individual or any contact between the MPs/CMP and the CO regarding this arrest being performed in the AO. If only you people would've communicated it would've been much more different.

So to conclude you really botched you arrest planetside, in the borderline of a safe/unsafe area, shot your target after tazing them, tazed an unrelated marine, punched an unrelated marine, used an AOE flash on the whole contigent at that outpost. After the BE the CMP puts pressure on false "insubordination" charges to the XO so that they could elevate to Blue and carry lethals.

Again, from what I can see the MP side has been stretching themselves past the line in this case so I can't really blame Marple for much of of this until these inconsistencies in Marine Law and procedures by yourselves have been cleared up to me. And you all resulted in this situation by failing the most important thing, communication. Instead everyone took some action according to their own head. So I'm going to need an explanation on the things mentioned above.

In any case, the CO council requires more detailed logs on correspondence between the CO and MPs regarding this instance, and any logs related to the situation with the XO and the CMP.

[Loco52]

I got the answers to your questions.

When I moved away from Hydro (there are logs about it, just didnt show up in that post) I came back to the FOB and stated I was in a safe area. Shortly after, a Prae was approaching the FOB some good tiles away and I managed to shoot him with my scope three times. Said Prae left.

I was by LZ when Oscar showed up, intending to talk to him to proceed with the arrest but as soon as he saw an MP he ran, I ran behind him and said

[13:22:55]SAY: Vaughn 'Hothead' Isemann/Loco52 : YOU
[13:23:26]ATTACK: Vaughn 'Hothead' Isemann (loco52) shot Nena Young (frolex) with a taser bolt in the Robotics (JMP) (PM)
[13:23:55]ATTACK: Mob_gg/(Oscar Kellogg) disarmed Vaughn 'Hothead' Isemann (loco52) at (58,54,1) (JMP)
[13:23:56]SAY: Vaughn 'Hothead' Isemann/Loco52 : Fucking mOV
[13:23:57]ATTACK: Mob_gg/(Oscar Kellogg) disarmed Vaughn 'Hothead' Isemann (loco52) at (58,53,1) (JMP)
[13:23:57]ATTACK: Vaughn 'Hothead' Isemann (loco52) shot Oscar Kellogg (mobgg) with a rifle bullet in the Robotics (JMP) (PM)

The persecuci�n started. While I was trying to click him with the taser he disarmed me, I apparently picked a M41A from that tile and he disarmed me again, which made me shoot him from the struggle. I dropped the M41A when I noticed and tried to switch to flasher.

I down him, prepare to cuff him before the delta SG kept grabbing him. Oscar stood up and went north of robotics, disarmed me, throwing my flasher and my cuff away. I followed him with a stunbaton and he disarms me, tries to grab the stunbaton and gets stunned. A while after I get up, stun him again and cant find my cuffs. I realize they were north so I proceeded to say "fuck you all" someone was dragging my flasher so I picked the flasher up with double click and it made the BZZZ sound, though no one was flashed as far as i'm aware, went north where Oscar tossed my cuffs to grab the them, went back and got BEd.

I'd like to address that if you double click a flasher and it buzzes, even if it does the flash sound it wont flash anyone.

I'll also address about the marine I punched: Oscar managed to disarm me of my flasher, it was a crowded room and marines kept trying to push me. I most likely punched the guy after Kellogs disarmed while trying to click him with the flasher.

Edit: CO didnt ICly see neither the marine I accidentally tazed nor the marine I punched. As he got a sight of the situation after Kellogs had disarmed me of my tazer, starting my first handcuff attempt.

[solidfury7]

I have no dog in this fight, I simply stated the situation as I saw it in game and I've spoken to both parties OOCly and discussed the situation somewhat and I can agree with both parties, and see faults in both parties, although this explicitly is an issue with BEs constantly being expanded from a "threat to my command" to a "Fly swatting tool", an opinion a large amount of people share.

I hardly believe how the XO could be arrested on insubordination charges, as I hate to read it to you but based on the charge's description it explicitly says "Failing to follow a lawful order from a superior." And the XO has a Commander rank while the CMP is a Lieutenant Commander. I don't see where this order from a superior came in, for you to elevate to Blue so that you could carry lethals. This is just you putting pressure on the XO who is a superior officer in the chain of command itself, by false threats.

Regarding Matters regarding Marine Law, the CMP outranks the XO as is stated in the following comment on the wiki, regarding the CMPs interactions. The bulletpoints below are concrete pillars of marine law.

• On USCM ships and operations, the law is enforced by the MPs and Chief MP and they operate independently from the normal command structure ONLY in matters related to the enforcement of the Law.
• The Commanding Officer of the Almayer has final say on law enforcement within his operational area unless overseen by higher officials of the Provost Marshal Office or High Command.
• The Chief MP is the second highest authority in law enforcement, above even the Executive Officer. While he may perform arrests, it is his duty to administrate the brig, ensure records are updated, timers are properly set, procedure is observed and to review cases and evidence.

This elevated alert was in response to multiple marines yelling for a mutiny against the MPs and the Captain unlawfully declaring the CMP rogue, in response to sending a fax to the Provost. Sending a fax to the Provost is a right which cannot be charged for within marine law, however, I was still detained on the Captains orders for this (For Sedition and insubordination, both were unlawful). The Blue alert would allow us to access non-lethal equipment, such as riot-gear, tear gas, beanbags and shotguns. This is the relevant equipment we would require to arrest the Captain or deal with the marines who were threatening mutiny below.

This is no different than an XO interfereing with the arrest of say, a delta specialist, where they can be told to stop interfering or risk an arrest. While insubordiantion is likely not the cleanest charge (however it is still applicable as he IS outranked in marine law issues), I did not fancy slapping an XO with either a NoD charge or an aiding and abetting charge which would likely resulted in him being detained for a significant amount of time or indefinitely. If this was a situation regarding the Captain being told to elevate blue alert, I may be inclined to agree, but the XO is below the CMP in matters regarding marine law.


On to the topic of communication, I was busy in the brig when my character was informed that his MP in a secure area was BE'ed, The first I heard of this situation was an announcement saying that my MP was BE'ed for flashing him, as such I sent a fax with all information I knew and requested the Provost investigate or act on it. The CIC team was made aware of my fax and that actually caused issues to detoriate, as expected, however I did it as it is something my character does when faxing the provost about specific issues.

[Rals]

I was playing as MP Brett McMatherson this round.

PFC Kellogg was arrested two times during this round for FFP. His sentence was escaleted from warning to ten minutes. After he was released second time, I saw him on Normandy without armor. When I asked him to get armor he said something like "Ignore him" to PO. I tried to arrest Kellogg third time, but he evaded arrest and escaped on Normandy. I reported on MP comms, that I am going to mark Kellogg and that he has commited FFP third time. Isemann heared it and asked CMP, if he can deploy to arrest Kellogg, CMP allowed it. That means, that Isemann could follow Non-Compliant Suspect arrest procedure, instead of Compliant Suspect arrest procedure.

CO did not ask about Kellogg charges on MP comms (I did not notice it, at least). I would like to say, however, that I said multiple times on MP comms, why Kellogg was marked (Other MPs and Isemann were asking about Kellogg's charges, as far as I remember).

When Kellogg returned to Almayer he told MPs, that CO pardoned him. I asked on MP comms if it is true, but CO did not respond.

AOE flash (It can be used, by clicking on flash in your hand) does not stun anyone, it just blinds people, who are near you, for a second or two.

[Pigeon]

As XO of the round want to add that yes the command console and CO console was broken and we had to ahelp to do even announcements. Two the cries of mutiny was after CMP threaten arrest so eventually I figured best have the provost come and just sort the whole thing out and was allowing and wanted the CMP to send the fax. No one was denying them the right to fax. But the round ended before we could go any further with the whole thing.

Also I think I did tell the CMP to just have the guy arrested when they came back shipside due to risk of harm for all parties involved if the MP goes bounty hunting for a PFC

[MarpleJones]

Regarding Arb's Question:

So far we have no information whatsoever that the CO pardoned the individual in question, and that's what I would like to know from you and Marple. As a matter of fact we don't even know the charges of the individual or any contact between the MPs/CMP and the CO regarding this arrest being performed in the AO. If only you people would've communicated it would've been much more different.

For clarification, I had neither pardoned anybody, nor had proper contact with the MPs ship-side until I finally realized that the Commander was eventually arrested. The only thing I've been notified of was a 'threat' from the CMP to send a fax in responce to the Battlefield Execution, which I declined the notion of by simply saying something along the lines of 'send a fax, I've done nothing wrong'. I intended to talk things out with the CMP regarding all the occured tantrum afterwards, since I missed the chance to do so earlier that match. I was even delusionally lied to by the culprit themselves; after I executed Officer Isemann, I asked what the charges were from Oscar Kellogs, since I didn't know what to think of the MP from that event alone and thought of things as a 'simple bald Military Police doing absolutely everything wrong', to which he replied 'running around without an armor'.

Communication was really problematic here, and I am afraid that both me and the CMP could've done better in that situation.

To adress solidfury's Involvement:

This elevated alert was in response to multiple marines yelling for a mutiny against the MPs and the Captain unlawfully declaring the CMP rogue, in response to sending a fax to the Provost. Sending a fax to the Provost is a right which cannot be charged for within marine law, however I was still detained on the Captains orders for this.

Once again, you were not detained for sending a fax, you have been arrested because I had absolutely no knowledge that you have actually sent one, or that command even received a response. From the little snippets of radio clutter I've heard, you took matter in your own hands before any orders from Provost even arrived, and as such I had you put into custody. I'm certain that you can't just provisionally arrest either ranking officers of Command without a proper validation from High Command. And I wouldn't've dared to call an arrest if things were clear.

Taken from the Marine Law, 'Mutinies and arresting the Commanding Officer':

• [...] MPs must contact High Command for approval before taking any action against the Commanding Officer. If there is no commanding officer, the person in command of the operation may be arrested, but High Command must be notified after the fact through fax. [...]

And, from my perspective, you have neither waited for a response, nor rightfully attempted to arrest the Executive Officer because of... him being the next in chain of command, and as such, taking full responsibility for my actions?
If anything, and you had merely only started armoring up before taking action, then I am terribly sorry that my memory fails me. But I can remember that your subordinates were already in the act of arrest, and as such, I've taken from my perspective the situationally right countermeasure against an unlawful arrest.

[solidfury7]

Regarding Arb's Question:


To adress solidfury's Involvement:


Once again, you were not detained for sending a fax, you have been arrested because I had absolutely no knowledge that you have actually sent one, or that command even received a response. From the little snippets of radio clutter I've heard, you took matter in your own hands before any orders from Provost even arrived, and as such I had you put into custody. I'm certain that you can't just provisionally arrest either ranking officers of Command without a proper validation from High Command. And I wouldn't've dared to call an arrest if things were clear.

Taken from the Marine Law, 'Mutinies and arresting the Commanding Officer':

• [...] MPs must contact High Command for approval before taking any action against the Commanding Officer. If there is no commanding officer, the person in command of the operation may be arrested, but High Command must be notified after the fact through fax. [...]

And, from my perspective, you have neither waited for a response, nor rightfully attempted to arrest the Executive Officer because of... him being the next in chain of command, and as such, taking full responsibility for my actions?
If anything, and you had merely only started armoring up before taking action, then I am terribly sorry that my memory fails me. But I can remember that your subordinates were already in the act of arrest, and as such, I've taken from my perspective the situationally right countermeasure against an unlawful arrest.

As I said previously, I don't paticuarly blame you for the limited view you have, this is simply an occurance of the game, it's no different from the CIC team being blamed for a loss without seeing the grander operation above.

To counter that, I will illuminate you to my characters perspective.

My character is alerted that a Military Police officer has been Battlefield executed for accidentally flashing you as the end of an operation, while chasing after a suspect in a secure area. In response, my character questions your actions before informing you that he is going to contact the Provost, as this is a gross overstep of what he views as a lawful execution as such a minor incident during the end of an operation is not a threat to your command. He writes a fax up and sends it to the provost, he also informs his men to kit up accordingly as the usual 'Cant we just kill MPs' is said on squad channels. I inform the XO to elevate to blue alert, which he does not respond to until a few more tries asking about the threat, which I eventually respond to, which he later ignores and leaves it on green, I send a MP up to the CIC to remind him that he must turn to blue alert as this is a shipside marine law based issue and failure to co-operate is insubordination, as I've formulated in an earlier post. The XO is not arrested during this.

While this is occuring, I state on both Command and MP channels that a fax has been made and sent regarding the Captain, in response, the Captain publically brands me with sedition and insubordination, despite following proper procedure. While the Captains order is technically unlawful, I don't argue with my MPs who seem to me somewhat confused and split on the matter, I instead guide them on what they should do in this process and what should follow (EG, investigate for 10 minutes, if the charge is false, the Captain has commited a crime) and to protect me from any potential BE or execution during this.


I think I've covered everything I need to say in this thread, I just wanted to state what I saw to assist in the investigation.

[MarpleJones]

My character is alerted that a Military Police officer has been Battlefield executed for accidentally flashing you as the end of an operation, while chasing after a suspect in a secure area. In response, my character questions your actions before informing you that he is going to contact the Provost, as this is a gross overstep of what he views as a lawful execution as such a minor incident during the end of an operation is not a threat to your command. He writes a fax up and sends it to the provost, he also informs his men to kit up accordingly as the usual 'Cant we just kill MPs' is said on squad channels. I inform the XO to elevate to blue alert, which he does not respond to until a few more tries asking about the threat, which I eventually respond to, which he later ignores and leaves it on green, I send a MP up to the CIC to remind him that he must turn to blue alert as this is a shipside marine law based issue and failure to co-operate is insubordination, as I've formulated in an earlier post. The XO is not arrested during this.

While this is occuring, I state on both Command and MP channels that a fax has been made and sent regarding the Captain, in response, the Captain publically brands me with sedition and insubordination, despite following proper procedure. While the Captains order is technically unlawful, I don't argue with my MPs who seem to me somewhat confused and split on the matter, I instead guide them on what they should do in this process and what should follow (EG, investigate for 10 minutes, if the charge is false, the Captain has commited a crime) and to protect me from any potential BE or execution during this.

I have digged up some OOC snippets of discussion in the Discord's Last-Round Channel of that match which might be of help, because I still see things as I have stated before. Anything which is not part of the discussion at hand is slightly greyed out (there's also a bit of talk prior to that which I didn't take pictures of, merely marking the start of the conversation):

1. https://i.imgur.com/2BnG3yd.png
2. https://i.imgur.com/JHwdcjF.png
3. https://i.imgur.com/mtbDYvu.png

Based on things said by the assumed MPs involved in that round, I can only assume that I was right in believing that you did arrest the Commander before any faxes were returned.
I am not entirely sure if this falls into what you have said, but I found this helpful enough to add into the report.

[solidfury7]

I have digged up some OOC snippets of discussion in the Discord's Last-Round Channel of that match which might be of help, because I still see things as I have stated before. Anything which is not part of the discussion at hand is slightly greyed out (there's also a bit of talk prior to that which I didn't take pictures of, merely marking the start of the conversation):

1. https://i.imgur.com/2BnG3yd.png
2. https://i.imgur.com/JHwdcjF.png
3. https://i.imgur.com/mtbDYvu.png

Based on things said by the assumed MPs involved in that round, I can only assume that I was right in believing that you did arrest the Commander before any faxes were returned.
I am not entirely sure if this falls into what you have said, but I found this helpful enough to add into the report.

Just to address something, it's not against marine law to arrest the XO, the Commanding officer in marine law refers to Captain, its a common mistake.

Also, in your discord logs, the majority of the people talking there were not MPs, I believe only two individuals, excluding myself were.