MP hate is a scam to lower RP standards - prove me wrong

[RaddishRed]

After reading through this thread as someone who has only played this game for about a year I find it quite interesting, I have never been arrested on CM though I very easily could as sometimes Req doesn't have an item I want but another Squad's Req has it lying on the floor (It is just so tempting!)

But as I said still somewhat new and perhaps other people present or future who are also new read this thread can someone clarify the following terms: FPP, DASAO and BE for me? (I have read through the wiki and couldn't find anything on these terms, there were a lot of articles that popped up when I searched BE but lets just say it wasn't exactly what I wanted)

I believe you mean DASO which is disrespecting a superior officer, self explanatory.

[Styx]

I believe you mean DASO which is disrespecting a superior officer, self explanatory.

Thanks for letting me know!

[CABAL]

I disagree:

Marine law BE
provided their words or actions fulfil one of the following conditions:
Threat to your command. Credibly attempting to or threatening to undermine your command or attempting to remove your command through illegal means. (The CL or other crew reporting you to high command does NOT permit you to BE them. A minor insult or disagreement is not undermining your command, countermanding or refusing to follow orders is.)
=> Does not apply he is not trying to undermine or remove the command and nor are the xeno's they are there to kill and grow the hive
Threat to persons. Credibly threatening and attempting to do harm to the CO or to someone while in the CO's presence.
=> Their words or actions... their here applies to the person being BE'ed the xeno's being a threat does not magically move it over to him.
Threat to the ship. Credibly threatening or attempting to do damage to the ship or the USCM while in the CO’s presence.
=> Same deal

So BE is 100% unlawful without a single doubt even in current Marine Law any presumed interpretation or something is just plain wrong and I am very willing if you give an example tell you why its wrong.
Like you said BE is for SOMEONE WHO IS a direct threat, it is not he who is the threat it are the xeno's. Only if he himself states he wants to overthrow / threaten if he is trying to release them that is entirely diffirent but he has done no motion to do so. By the logic that he is "able" to release the xeno's everyone can be BE'ed because a PFC is "able" to shoot the CO with his gun. Also note it states direct threat and credibly threatening several times not just a threat this helps against other abuses.

No sorry it is 100% unlawful and should have caused him to get a big ping.

I too, disagree: Benos are weapon. Just as you will breed dogs to attack people, you are responsible for what they have done. If you breed benos without anyones premission, then it's your actions that created this danger, you are responsible. BE wasn't valid, Researcher should be arrested, but Researcher was guilty anyway.

[Nichodemius]

So you don't disagree? We are in agreement it seems even tho you began with I too disagree.

I everytime mentioned it was the BE that was wrong and unlawful. Any possibility of crimes lawful or not indeed depends on the round and what happened. And isn't what I was talking about. Very possible a crime was committed even. That's why researchers should really make sure that they do the correct things or risk me coming in to spank em on the ass with love <3
As you said yourself now the BE wasn't valid. And I agree a crime could have been committed that needs to be punished. The BE was just the wrong punishment.

Also about the silence around the other situation I looked into that one too. One it is not aiding and abetting because blocking an MP in a chase is not aiding someone in a crime that was already committed. You can't still aid in a task that has been completed. But it isinterfering with an arrest. Then in that crime it is indeed possible. To fix this we mustchange:
To disrupt or interfere with a lawful arrest done by the military police.
Into:
To wilfully disrupt....
You standing in his was as he rushed upto you is now save. Only when he sees you repeat the block does he have reason to mention you are wilfully disrupting.
Now others may say but the MP can just claim it.
A MP can also claim other things. But ooc MP cannot do any crimes and a unlawful arrest leads to imprisonment prevarication crime. Report it. Some violations that you report can be seen in logs. Other things can't like body blocking. But there are ghosts. I watch rounds if I cannot be MP or died as beno. If he does it once he will repeat his name will be known and he will be checked.
It won't be instant but the rotten apple will be busted.
But most MPs aren't rotten and the issue will be gone.

I truly believe IC MPs can be a source of fun good quality RP. OOC help improve said RP by reducing chuckle and such and can handle a load of ahelp issues with IC punishment teaching school. Hopefully the offender learns to stop the things that harm the play experience of others such as random murders. If they repeat those throughout various rounds even when being permad etc boink em. But I believe minor macho shenanigans are fine. A good source of some RP as long as it doesn't get out of hands. Even if repeated.
Example the delta motivation spank.

[Nichodemius]

Extra note:
These examples are great information.
But are beginning to get further from the topic.
Sure they prove it isn't just a scam VS MP but also a issue within security, Mlaw etc but that has been established already. I will make a post requesting examples to be placed there in a discussion format.

[alexpkeaton]

So, let me summarize what I've learned from this thread so far:

• Several of us believe as I do MP hate derives significantly from the fact that people want their Team Deathmatch with less roleplay. Those players don't like being put in a box where they can't fight (or chucklefuck) and take their dislike of that fact out on the roles that enable that.
• MP hate sometimes comes from false outrage over long sentences for minor crimes, but that is sometimes because of the addition of resisting arrest and assault. But the players conveniently omit those to suggest that they got 45 minutes for disrupting briefing, an otherwise 5 minute/NJP charge.
• Among the non-MP playerbase, a few bad apples are the Usual Suspects, those who regularly grace the brig and sometimes incite their squads to interfere with their briggings. Maybe staff could crack down on these few?
• MPs are often baited by the Usual Suspects. Then the Usual Suspects ahelp minor procedure violations when they have potentially violated server rules.
• Interfering in an arrest can be a problem when it gets out of hand. A small MP force just cannot handle that many offenders. In chaos, it is difficult for MPs to get procedure 100% right and the above-mentioned ahelping for procedure happens even among this large-scale mini-mutiny in violation of server rules. Generally, staff could step in to manage such things sooner.
• Power-tripping by MPs has been reported which I had not witnessed personally when it was first brought up. However, since this thread began I saw one such MP. I ahelped the bad MP and he rage-quitted into cryo. Ahelp bad MPs, plain and simple. Please do this, just not if you broke server rules and want to quibble about procedure because you're a hypocrite who should go to Hippie.
• Failure to follow procedure is a largely hated element of Marine Law. Let me state here that in 30 plus rounds (I'd say it is maybe 50+ at this point but there's no way to know) I have never seen someone brigged over it. Is it a scapegoat for MP/Marine Law hate? Either way it needs to be clarified.
• NJP's are beneficial and should be utilized more, and the fact they aren't leads to more briggings over small stuff and therefore more hate of the MP role. I understand and agree with this. Ignoring/warning for some minor crimes is also within an MPs purview and this could utilized more also.
• It might be useful to integrate NJPs in the punishment ranges, such as Hooliganism: Min: NJP, Max: 15 minutes. A problem with Marine Law as written is that NJPs are a separate section listed below the list of crimes and punishment ranges. In my experience I'd say about 3 out of 4 briggings are done with the minimum sentence (gears up for the naysayers) for the crime(s) involved, so adding NJP under some minimum punishments could lead to a greater use of the option. When I refer to crimes plural I only mean adding resisting in such cases. While it may happen in some rounds I have never seen other charge stacking allowed by Marine Law such as multiple DASO charges. I understand new players to MP may stack charges illegally. I've not witnessed this myself though I have corrected MPs on comms about to do that.
• COs can abuse power too, I know I've seen it plenty and only one instance of a MP doing so. Sometimes it is a CO who orders some sort of procedure which ends up setting up the MPs for a bad round. I have seen a CO make some orders which were nearly mutiny-bait but not things wich could lead to FFP violations. Some have reported COs requiring helmets, baiting both marines and MPs.
• If you abolished MPs admins/mods would have to deal with a bunch of minor violations. They need to focus on the players who are HEFAing fellow marines for fun.
• MP mains need to recognize the state of the playerbase regarding the MP role and make an effort to improve the image of the role. At the same time, assistance from admins/mods putting a little more pressure on the Usual Suspects might go a long way in reducing the small charges leading to long sentences for resisting leading to false outrage in OOC/dchat/discord about how they were brigged so long for hooliganism. Those players are toxic and should be dealt with.
• MPs should make more of an effort to have positive encounters with other characters. Not always in law-enforcement mode.
• Marine law has a lot of room for interpretation. Perhaps clarifying it some might be useful.
• Maximum sentences can be a bit too high on a couple of charges, especially Destruction of Government Property.

tl;dr: I still believe MP hate comes largely from LRPers. False outrage over long sentences that include resisting exists and leads to additional MP hate that is based on deception. FFP existing in Marine Law, though rarely actually employed, is also a convenient scapegoat. Bad apples in the server, both marines who are frequent fliers in the brig and bad MPs, need to be banned/sanctioned more heavily. Whole squads interfering in an arrest needs to be handled by staff instead of MPs. Ultimately, MPs can improve their image on the server by making daily deposits of positive/lenient interactions. NJPs are good and should be incorporated as the minimum punishment for some minor crimes.

[Nichodemius]

^ +1 love the summary.
Only missing one dot:
It is not either minimum or maximum sentance. It can gradually increase especially for sentances with a big disparity between minimum and maximum.

[Sakuyoi]

Oh yeah. I need to remind that you can get arrested for not following standard equipment as a CT if the RO gives you a command headset to do your job better.
I got an ahelp like that and them getting arrested and we moderators cant do shit about it. The player just cryod/ghosted and they told me they just wanted to play the fucking game competent and not get arrested for shit like that.

You can get arrested for throwing a harmless training grenade on briefing too for hooliganism or disorderly conduct(if the MP is a shitbag)
I remember alpha squad doing a mutiny/lynching because the CMP arrested someone just because of that. And we OOCly handled it. And the MP in question keeps ahelping about arresting them one by one and they're the aCO and theres no other MPs online. They were persisting to arrest them even if IT WAS ALREADY HANDLED AND THEY'RE JUST GONNA CAUSE MORE PROBLEMS AND DERAIL THE ROUND.(It was lowpop)

Also being a mod doesnt mean my opinion doesnt count.

[Nichodemius]

Actually I believe the training grenade, smoke grenades enormous amounts of LOOC and general yelling crawling over the fences etc dureing briefing is very very LRP.
It is a actual crime in marine law Disorderly conduct and one that I believe has use for RP quality.
They should indeed be arrested, marines may smack talk a bit, but some briefs are just a mess. That needs to be adressed by MP's so it doesnt need to be done OOC.
If it gets out of hand OOC step in and should be done to stop the round from derailing. The MP is not at fualt here.
Sure at first it will require allot of step ins if the people believe it is ok to be chuckle briefing and believe its then ok to gang up on the MP.
MP makes IC arrest one at a time sees if the others stop. If the gang up happens its not a valid mutiny not something a trained sane minded Marine would do and such a bad class of RP step in.

The other issues are a bigger issues like did I understand correctly the MP is aCO? The hell?

Commanding Officer
Executive Officer
Chief Engineer
Requisitions Officer
Chief MP
Staff Officer
Pilot Officer/Intelligence Officer
Senior Enlisted Adviser
Tank Crewman
Military Police (Waaaay down here)

Or the fact he continues arresting "everyone" after OOC interaction. This needs to be checked. Do you have the power, authorization as a mod to tell him to stop at that point? If yes do so or sleep him if he doesnt comply. Again details here do allot.

Offcourse how you arrest, how you type can make a situation bad too. That I don't know about as well the MP needs to be the example.
I recently tried to make a arrest but also made the mistake of trying it in a bad way (DS arrests...yay). We all are learning but we must do our best and improve.

I myself don't know where the command headset came from could you please tell me where they are from?
I thought the surplus only had:

Alpha Squad radio encryption key.
Bravo Squad radio encryption key.
Charlie Squad radio encryption key.
Delta Squad radio encryption key.
Supply radio encryption key.
Engineering radio encryption key.

Is this outdated? It matters in this case.

[alexpkeaton]

-snip-

MPs are not shitbags for arresting someone for tossing a GRENADE in briefing, training or not. I agree with Nichodemius, it's very LRP. Don't blame the MP for enforcing Marine Law. Now would I have made the arrest? No. I would have grabbed the grenade and flushed it. And any others the chucklefuck tossed.

Why would I not arrest, when I just said that tossing a grenade in briefing would be a reasonable arrest?

I would not arrest because I do not want a riot by a squad because staff consistently allow interfering with an arrest to be an IC problem. The fact that in the example that is exactly what Alpha squad did proves my point. While staff handled that one OOCly, what about all the times they don't? What sanctions did anyone from Alpha receive for that stunt? I'd bet none.

What about the times it is just after briefing and everyone's making their way to the dropships and an arrest is made, and I get a "sorry, it's after briefing, we don't care about 15 marines rioting over a DASO charge, IC issue" when I ahelp. Staff enable these situations because the chucklefucks know that 75% of the time staff sit on their hands and 20% of the time all that happens is a MOOC: Oh you guys stahp.... No pings, no sanctions, no bans.

Don't blame the MP for staff's failure to enforce server rules in the past.

Also don't blame the MP for ICly enforcing Marine Law.