The Boiler

[MasterShakeEZ]

The offscreen kill has never been argued, just the extremely spammable nature and recently boosted power for the spread.

fgr and swagile were just arguing it my man. I just like lumping everyone together when I say yall.

[FGRSentinel]

None of that matters at all to this discussion we are talking about off screen kills which only the boiler gas can instakill you from offscreen. You can be revived from ANY amount of boiler gas as long as the medic keeps trying to defibb you while the kelotane heals EVERY SINGLE BIT of the damage. I play medic and doctor I know how it works. Literally everything else in this paragraph has no relevance to off screen kills so I dont care about any of it.

Chemicals don't work in corpses and a Medic can't revive someone with more than 200 combined damage in a single defib. You can't "keep trying to defib while the kelotane heals every single bit of damage" in a goddamn corpse that doesn't even get revived by the defib. No offense, but from someone who claims to play a doctor and medic, the lapse in knowledge in how medicine works makes it hard to trust the claim. If a Marine dies in an acid cloud and gets more than about 300-400 burn, it becomes increasingly difficult to revive them for a single medic: only advanced burn kits or ointment work to treat burn on a corpse and you can only use them once on each limb until they get new injuries, so if you find someone with over 400 burn (which I have as a medic) you basically need to send out a desperate call for help over medical comms and hope that there's enough medics in the area to help revive the Marine before they go braindead or you run out of defib charges.

[Swagile]

Ok so what your not getting here is to instantly be off screen gibbed by a SADAR, you must:

Be hit by a AT rocket (which costs req 10 points per rocket, to a total of 60 points for a 6 rocket crate).

Be a T1 and get hit by a HE rocket and get incredibly shit RNG.

An AT rocket is very hard to hit; it must be a COMPLETELY DIRECT HIT to gib, and it doesn't always gib. Sometimes you do massive damage enough to crit a T2 or T3 but no gib, other times you instantly gib them.

HE rockets does not gib unless your a T1 with terrible RNG or had low HP anyway.

Now:

Boiler DOES NOT NEED a DIRECT HIT to kill instantly; its just the most reliable method. You also do a lot of collateral damage, and it requires NO REAL COST as Boilers just have to wait on a cool down.

You can also have 2-3 boilers in the Xeno team; you cannot have more than 1 SADAR Spec unless you hit DEFCON 3 and get a Marine Reinforcement Wave (which has only happened ONCE and it was due to admin intervention).

So your argument that "haha you can just heal and defib" really doesn't check out.

[FGRSentinel]

Also, you're missing the point. There's one glaring line in my initial statement that started this argument that you aren't noticing or acknowledging.

The Boiler is becoming the new tank, if not worse.

If you're going to pick and choose parts of my argument, at least have the common courtesy to address the primary claim I'm making first.

If you're willing to have an actual discussion, please reread my initial statement.

[MasterShakeEZ]

Chemicals don't work in corpses and a Medic can't revive someone with more than 200 combined damage in a single defib. You can't "keep trying to defib while the kelotane heals every single bit of damage" in a goddamn corpse that doesn't even get revived by the defib. No offense, but from someone who claims to play a doctor and medic, the lapse in knowledge in how medicine works makes it hard to trust the claim. If a Marine dies in an acid cloud and gets more than about 300-400 burn, it becomes increasingly difficult to revive them for a single medic: only advanced burn kits or ointment work to treat burn on a corpse and you can only use them once on each limb until they get new injuries, so if you find someone with over 400 burn (which I have as a medic) you basically need to send out a desperate call for help over medical comms and hope that there's enough medics in the area to help revive the Marine before they go braindead or you run out of defib charges.

I never said it was easy to revive them but it is possible. Ya youre right I didnt mention advanced burn kits. Doesnt change the fact that what I ment was that burn damage has no lasting effect whatsoever. So whatever means you use to heal them still achieves the same result a 100% marine that doesnt matter that he just got hit by an acid cloud.

[MasterShakeEZ]

Ok so what your not getting here is to instantly be off screen gibbed by a SADAR, you must:

Be hit by a AT rocket (which costs req 10 points per rocket, to a total of 60 points for a 6 rocket crate).

Be a T1 and get hit by a HE rocket and get incredibly shit RNG.

An AT rocket is very hard to hit; it must be a COMPLETELY DIRECT HIT to gib, and it doesn't always gib. Sometimes you do massive damage enough to crit a T2 or T3 but no gib, other times you instantly gib them.

HE rockets does not gib unless your a T1 with terrible RNG or had low HP anyway.

Now:

Boiler DOES NOT NEED a DIRECT HIT to kill instantly; its just the most reliable method. You also do a lot of collateral damage, and it requires NO REAL COST as Boilers just have to wait on a cool down.

You can also have 2-3 boilers in the Xeno team; you cannot have more than 1 SADAR Spec unless you hit DEFCON 3 and get a Marine Reinforcement Wave (which has only happened ONCE and it was due to admin intervention).

So your argument that "haha you can just heal and defib" really doesn't check out.

Boilers cant aim a offscreen kill at all so sadar being hard to use is still easier to get an off screen kill. Even with everything else you said req points/less sadars/everything the sadar STILL gets more off screen kills than the boiler. Thats what you dont seem to understand. Its not an offscreen kill if it doesnt instakill them. You just got played by being shit if you got killed by a gas ball that didnt directly hit you.

[MasterShakeEZ]

Also, you're missing the point. There's one glaring line in my initial statement that started this argument that you aren't noticing or acknowledging.

The Boiler is becoming the new tank, if not worse.

If you're going to pick and choose parts of my argument, at least have the common courtesy to address the primary claim I'm making first.

If you're willing to have an actual discussion, please reread my initial statement.

Ya give me the tank for 1 round and you will gladly take the boiler back. Fucking pure exaggerated bullshit.

[FGRSentinel]

Alright, reread through my post at the bottom of page 3, tell me how my statements about Xeno complaints regarding the tank were wrong, examples of its weaknesses are incorrect, and how my comparison of the Boiler to the tank isn't correct without spending your entire response harping on the first point. I've put my argument out there, so the ball's in your court and you've been avoiding giving a proper, direct counterargument to the full claim.

[MasterShakeEZ]

Pretty much everyone agrees wider gas needs to go from what ive seen. You really cant complain about xenos protecting other xenos thats just stupid so IDK what that arguement is. Marines wont let sadar die if they can help it either. Acid spray shoots 6 tiles and is a straight line, you can easily outrange it and kill the boiler especially since boilers glow so you dont need to be close to see them so that whole durability paragraph you wrote is bullshit. If you are getting anti body blocked by a boiler you fucking suck so thats your problem. You dont have to kill a boiler with a sniper to completely disrupt the boiler and allow marines to push so IDK what you are talking about no counterplay. This isnt even mentioning sadar which if it gets in range of the boiler with minirail can instakill the boiler. Oh defender is infront of the boiler? blow him up too who gives a shit. The only thing that has changed for boiler is wider gas. Thats it. Ya it can move slightly faster than it used to so fucking what it makes no difference. Wider gas is literally the only thing that changed that has any affect on the balance of the game. No one bitched about the boiler like this before wider gas. Yall are just taking this as an opportunity to try to make the boiler useless.

Alright, reread through my post at the bottom of page 3, tell me how my statements about Xeno complaints regarding the tank were wrong, examples of its weaknesses are incorrect, and how my comparison of the Boiler to the tank isn't correct without spending your entire response harping on the first point. I've put my argument out there, so the ball's in your court and you've been avoiding giving a proper, direct counterargument to the full claim.

Already did.

[FGRSentinel]

Regarding the "sniper is a counterplay" thing, it doesn't disrupt boilers as much as you think. I've actually had times where I ate a few bullets, fired a gas cloud, and then rested on the spot because I know whatever shot me is going to be backing off until the cloud goes away and I'll probably be healed up by then.

Regarding the SADAR, the Boiler can outrange the SADAR if zoomed out and any Boiler with half a brain would scream to their friends that the boomtube's coming and bolt, so I wouldn't call the SADAR a counter to the Boiler unless the Boiler's completely incompetent.

The Boiler being faster is an issue considering it means even it can escape a Mortar shell, CAS strike, or an OB unless it's unlucky.

I'll say this in case I forgot it earlier: when I started playing, I loved being Boiler. The problem is, with power creep it's become too easy for a single Boiler to change the round in the way the tank could. With wider gas the Boiler can clear half an FOB. The increased strength of all other Xenos makes it trival to break through a cade line. Barricades were nerfed so nobody can really shoot over a cade they aren't standing next to, but Xenos can attack Marines even over wired cades from what I've seen.

That's the crux of the issue: the Boiler's becoming the new tank in that many of the complaints against it that are around right now mirror the complaints many Xeno mains and some Marine mains had about the tank, while also not having the "can't fit through doorways or shoot behind it" weaknesses. That is what I mean when I say the Boiler's becoming the new tank: not that it can soak up an insane amount of damage, but that it's becoming everything Xeno players hated about the tank and more to many Marine players.