User Tag List

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 14 of 14

Thread: Genuine question about Balance and "Skill issue"

  1. #11
    Dev Team
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    12
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If you can't tell what Skill Issue means, it's probably a Skill Issue :smork:

    I think you're trying to think about targeting too hard. This is SS13/CM, it's a mess. Different people have varying opinions.

    Some will push for a more roleplayey game, some will push for a more actioney game. Just based on that, that should tell you how scattered we are when it comes to direction and audience. The game naturally evolves over the years based on what people make of it - and as hard as we've tried in the past with CM to have a more coherent vision, it's simply not worked out overall.

    My personal take on the game follows oldschool SS13. The game isn't unforgiving per se, and doesn't aim to be: it's rather that you should play it with the expectation of failure. And of all things you shouldn't be here to win, because you won't. In that sense, if you're getting frustrated at the game, it more often than not actually means you just need a break.

    To explain in more detail, a good part of what made SS13 popularity in my analysis historically is the freeform fail-stories style. Nothing interesting ever happens when everything goes by-the-book. The fun comes from the derailing and the stories they provide, be it hard roleplay or more spontaneous gameplay/player interaction. In a way, this is a theater. You're playing a role, enacting the broader story, and watching it go FUBAR.

    So the game literally sets you up to fail. Like, that's it, i'm not kidding. It's not about the game being hardcore or unforgiving: you're simply just, flat out, setup to fail. CM might break from SS13 on many instances, but it to date retains a lot of that aspect. Things will go wrong and players are "encouraged" to.
    As a random example in our current code, most of the game gives damage a 2-5% critical chance, but marine-to-marine explosions have higher armor bypass and 10% critical chance. It's all literally on purpose.

    So yes. The game literally pushes you to failure, because you might get unlucky, but most of the time it mainly creates ridiculous memorable situations for others and dchat to laugh/bruh at. It's by design.
    This also brings up a very interesting point in that this makes the cryptic UI and mechanics bit of a feature indirectly, they're not just here as intricate secrets for robustos.
    And you can clearly see that as game got streamlined in modern codebases, the above aspects are fading away gradually.

    So ultimately, the way i see it, the target of the game is both very broad, and yet very precise: anyone that can have fun in spontaneous interaction and remembers that this is just a videogame to not get mad when things will inevitably go wack.

    ... That's a lot less people than you might expect, and very often just playing too much makes it easy to forget


    Edit: This doesn't really address what you meant regarding new players in the pure PvP sense, but I personally totally think this is the resulting of forgetting the above and too much focus on balance and "Competitive TDM" mindset over the years instead... We're running this game on an engine from 1996, made by hundred clueless volunteers over more than 15 years, and with more cross interactions than any modern commercial game, do you expect this to possibly ever run smooth for pure fast-paced TDM gameplay ? Seriously ? People need to wake up....
    Last edited by Fira; 10-29-2021 at 07:20 AM.

  2. #12
    Primordial Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    1,902
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Fira View Post
    ...

    My personal take on the game follows oldschool SS13. The game isn't unforgiving per se, and doesn't aim to be: it's rather that you should play it with the expectation of failure. And of all things you shouldn't be here to win, because you won't. In that sense, if you're getting frustrated at the game, it more often than not actually means you just need a break.

    To explain in more detail, a good part of what made SS13 popularity in my analysis historically is the freeform fail-stories style. Nothing interesting ever happens when everything goes by-the-book. The fun comes from the derailing and the stories they provide, be it hard roleplay or more spontaneous gameplay/player interaction. In a way, this is a theater. You're playing a role, enacting the broader story, and watching it go FUBAR.

    ...

    The differences between "fun expectation of failure" and "unfun expectation of failure" are few and simple, yet get over some people's head.
    Latter is unfair, quick, meaningless and stupid. Former is "fairly" fair, a bit slower, has some meaning and kinda atleast a bit of smart.

    Chosen example within CM code fits the latter, isn't it? Like atleast 75% of it.
    "Standard" SS13 servers struggle with that too, but that can't even compare with current state of affairs.
    Objectively shitty lore doesn't help either.

    "Fun expectation of failure" is what games with "horde" mode (or Rogue-like and Rogue-lite) aim to achieve, the basic principle is that it starts easy, but gets hard along the way, till you fail, but you can clearly see your achivement, you already achieve something and you see you can be better. Overall you had the time to have fun. Bonus points if it have a clear goal and ending that you can achieve, something like Darkest Dungeon.
    "Unfun expectation of failure" would be to play something like "Unfair mario". Secret traps, semi-secret mechanics, fast-paced from the start.

    Decide to what category CM was and is closer.

  3. #13
    Dev Team
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    12
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Both to various extents, but mostly really neither because everyone seems to be pushing it into a PvP High-speed TDM game instead.... and it falls into the second category as a side effect. That's what i've been saying. It also reflects OP's experience with teaching the new player. I'm discussing mainly the point which was the "target audience", not what it's actually becoming.

  4. #14
    Whitelisted Captain
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    159
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    You guys seem to assume that "GIT GUD" school of game design is invalid somehow and every game should coddle up to the player. While the popularity of Dark Souls and Tarkov proves otherwise. Even the OP admits that those games exist. Mind you, I don't mean that you should like these kind of games, but it's a valid game design paradigm. For me starting CM was an amazing experience. Xenos that are actually scary and every time you tried to fuck around with them, you'd immediately get punished.

    Taking the antag idea from the original SS13 and then multiplying all participants accordingly is that one good core idea of CM. That attracted a certain kind of player and also would have many detractors, especially among people with big ego protagonist mentality.
    Roman 'Fire' Kacew

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •