Please God Change Marine Law Please God Please

[NoahKirchner]

Hi, I am Noah Kirchner and I have two personality traits. One is that I am retarded, and the other one is that I FUCKING HATE MARINE LAW WITH EVERY CELL IN MY BODY. But instead of bitching about it in dchat I decided to write up what I think would be a more reasonable marine law structure, more reasonable punishments and generally revised MP SOP to make the game more fun and enjoyable for marines, MPs, and to still preserve the medium RP elements of rounds (preventing chaos)

Before I go in and rewrite marine law, I want to lay out my main problems with it and how I believe they impact the round. I'll put a tl;dr at the end of this if you hate reading because I know that I ramble on like a retard sometimes when I am making melodramatic spessman funny pew pew game forum posts. My largest concern is the time of the punishments. CM has some of the longest and most strict punishment times of any server that I have played on, it rivals HRP servers and it can easily ruin someone's round even when they did something relatively minor. Let's take resisting arrest, for starters, which is described as "To resist a lawful arrest or search". This can be as simple as running away - something that literally every marine will do, and the MINIMUM sentence it carries is ten minute. The maximum sentence is a half an hour - that is ridiculous. People play CM to have fun, and while being brigged SHOULD be punishing, resisting arrest isn't even a crime in and of itself, it's just a modifier that can add an extra HALF AN HOUR onto your time spent not playing the game.

Theft is another one of these examples, again something that happens every single round - that also carries a minimum of 10 and a maximum of 30 minutes charge. This means that, feasibly, a marine who does steals an item from the medbay, runs away from the MPs and then calls an officer a dickhead can be executed, if all maximum punishments are applied, as that sentence exceeds an hour. That seems a bit ridiculous to me, and I'd assume it should to you also.

A retort that I have heard to this is that staff tend to step in when an MP is lawyering the system and giving people unfair punishments. That is a good thing, and I'm glad that they do that, but if marine law worked the way it should, I don't think that this would really be an issue in the first place. Minor crimes carry colossal sentences for really no good reason, and I believe that decreasing time and making it more difficult for MPs to be shitters could also decrease (if only slightly) the workload on the staff of trying to determine the severity of a series of crimes after someone has been permanently imprisoned.

tl;dr: BRIG TIME TOO BIG!!! OWIE!!!

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Proposed Changes:

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Optional

Charge	Description	Minimum Punishment	Maximum Punishment
Resisting Arrest	To resist a lawful arrest or search by a Military Police officer.	2 Minutes	15 Minutes
Aiding and Abetting	Assisting others in committing a crime, directly or indirectly, or encouraging them to commit one. Also applies to interfering with an arrest.	Same punishment as the crime committed	Same punishment as the crime committed

Minor Crimes

Charge	Description	Minimum Punishment	Maximum Punishment
Neglect of Duty	Failure to perform one’s role to an acceptable standard. This includes, but is not limited to: on-duty intoxication, leaving the ship without authorization, failing to follow proper procedure or SOP, or failing to properly organize, command and communicate with subordinates or superiors. This also includes intentionally preventing another crew member from adequately performing their duty, either do to injury, restraint or other methods.	5 Minutes	10 Minutes, demotion
Damage to Government Property	Damaging the ship or making any unauthorized modifications to it as outlined in Standard Operating Procedure.	Return the ship to it's exact previous state as accurately as is feasibly possible.	10 Minutes, returning the ship to it's exact previous state as accurately as is feasibly possible.
Prevarication	To intentionally order the arrest of a marine who is then found to be innocent, or to apply an improper or abusive NJP.	5 Minutes	10 Minutes, demotion
Hooliganism	Behavior that is generally disruptive to the ship and crew that classifies as low-level shenanigans not deserving of more severe punishment. Things such as excessive window knocking, force-feeding other marines or failing to conduct oneself properly during briefing.	2 Minutes, NJP Recommended	10 Minutes, NJP Recommended
Trespassing	Unauthorized access of an area which a person does not have access to at the beginning of the shift or without command/superior approval.	2 Minutes	5 Minutes
Insubordination	Failing to follow a lawful order from a superior. Using offensive names or being directly disrespectful to someone of a higher rank or position.	5 Minutes	10 Minutes, demotion
Contraband	Possessing, or distributing controlled substances or unauthorized items or weapons as defined in Standard Operating Procedure or impairing, intoxicating or addictive drugs such as Mindbreaker, this does not include custom mixes or dosages of medicinal drugs.	Confiscation of contraband	10 Minutes, confiscation of contraband, demotion
Theft	To take items (or property) from another person or entity without their express permission, or to retain possession of items that have been taken without permission.	Return item to owner	10 Minutes, return item to owner

Major Crimes

Charge	Description	Minimum Punishment	Maximum Punishment
Assault	To threaten or use physical force against someone with ill intent, but without intent to kill.	5 Minutes	15 Minutes
Manslaughter	Killing someone without malicious intent. Manslaughter may be applied if someone dies as a result of a fight where the intent was not to kill.	5 Minutes	15 Minutes, demotion
Assault with a deadly weapon	To use physical force against someone with ill intent and with a lethal weapon such as a sidearm, blade, or rifle.	10 Minutes	30 Minutes, demotion
Illegal Confinement	Confinement Unlawfully detaining a person against their will. Includes, kidnapping, hostage taking and confining people in cells without charging them for a crime. Does not apply to Prisoners of War.	10 Minutes	30 Minutes

Capital Crimes

Charge	Description	Minimum Punishment	Maximum Punishment
Jailbreak/Escape	To escape, assist in an escape, attempt escape, or be willfully and knowingly broken out.	Double initial time is applied to all involved	Permanent Confinement
Sexual Assault	To attempt to or succeed in the acts of assaulting another person sexually, including rape.	Permanent Confinement	Execution
Murder or Unauthorized Execution	Killing someone with malicious intent. This includes Synthetic units. Executions are only authorized as outlined in Execution Procedure.	30 Minutes, demotion	Permanent Confinement/Execution
Sedition	To engage in actions or refuse to follow orders as to overthrow or usurp the legitimate command structure. Can stack with insubordination.	30 Minutes, demotion	Permanent Confinement/Execution
Desertion	Abandoning one's post unauthorized without intent to return and where doing so is not immediately necessary for one's survival. (Retreating from the planet when the FOB is breached is not Desertion, refusing to return when ordered, or hiding on the colony to avoid combat, is.)	30 Minutes, demotion	Permanent Confinement/Execution

Non-Judicial Punishments (NJPs)

For crimes with a sentence equal to or lower than 15 minutes, the arresting MP, Chief MP or the Commanding Officer may administer a Non-Judicial Punishment instead of a brig sentence. NJPs may only be issued to those they outrank. This may range from reprimands or PT to extra duties or reassignment to a new post, but may not be physically abusive. Additionally, Commissioned Officers and Squad Leaders may apply NJPs to marines under their command should they be insubordinate or disrespectful. Failure to comply with non-judicial punishment will result in an extra charge of insubordination. NJPs may not impede the marine from performing his duty for more than 15 minutes. All punishment-related orders to perform tasks outside a marine's assigned duties are considered NJPs and require the subject to have committed a named criminal offense to be issued.



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This is how I would rewrite marine law. As you can see, I removed some laws that I felt were redundant - for example, the distinction between disrespect of a superior officer and insubordination, because disrespect of a superior officer literally uses the same description for half of it. I also massively decreased the punishment time on most things, given that crimes tend to stack anyhow - this should make it much more difficult to rule lawyer people into a fucklong sentence. I also increased the amount of NJP-able time, because NJPs are infinitely more fun than sitting in the brig with your thumb up your ass and playing on your phone.

I would like to read your feedback on these proposed changes and i'm hoping it starts a discussion about marine law. I may make changes to this proposition if I see cool stuff added, and by all means feel free to make ur own autistic tables if you think mine is retarded.

[ghostdex]

cringe nae nae baby

[Memesky]

Seemed good at first but then you made the brig timers illegaly low, dont support it

- MP Main

[NoahKirchner]

Seemed good at first but then you made the brig timers illegaly low, dont support it

- MP Main

I see where you are coming from, but as it stands the potential to fuck someone over with massive timers is very easy. A lot of times crimes overlap with each other. Resisting arrest can almost always be applied, theft and tresspassing almost always go together, and if insubordination counts as disrespecting an officer, that happens nearly constantly. Individual timers are low because these are meant to be stacked, instead of dogpiling someone with eight billion minutes for something really really minor. If you take a situation that you see commonly and apply this list to it, I'd think you'd see that the timer you get out of it would be similar to the time that you put them in the brig for now.

If you have criticisms over specific timers for specific crimes, I'd be happy to change it (I just bumped up resisting arrest for example), but overall this to me seems more reasonable for a 2d spessman game.

[Pigeon]

+1 Lower the timers

But tbh I think the reason the timers are like they are is becuase you shouldnt be committing any crime, at all. A marine is meant to be a person that passed training, should be somewhat conditioned to not be insane

[CABAL]

One thing that needs to change: Refusing to deploy should be NOD, not Desertion.

[AcuteCircle]

sexual assault shoudl be legal


but yeah I agree, being out of the round for 30 minutes for what can be a legit mistake (missclick) is ridiculous

[NoahKirchner]

One thing that needs to change: Refusing to deploy should be NOD, not Desertion.

I agree with you. I contemplated taking desertion out honestly because of how broad it's implications are, but I think I am going to reword it.

[Call me Arty]

The condensing of the law I'm fine with. I've had plenty of arguments with fellow players over fine lines and gray areas. That's the part I don't have a problem with.



I enjoy playing non-combat roles a fair amount of the time. This means roles such as CMO, CMP, SO, the sort. These are also close to being marine punching bags. We are often fucked with because we aren't expected to fight back or chase the marines down on the dropship. Let's see how this plays out.

An MP tries to arrest a marine in briefing. We've seen this a lot. They run to their squad shouting "fuck MPs!", MPs get stomped or shot, can't get to the marine on the dropship surrounded by a wave of marines disarming them. We know this is an issue because of the number of times and admin has had to intervene and heal the battered police or pacify the disobedient marines.
Between 2 and 10 minutes for making everyone's round get delayed around 5 to 20.

Stomping on a doctor who refused to give you your "Unga Juice" or oxycodone.
15 minutes minimum for assaulting a civilian who will probably save five lives that round and has no way to fight back.

Telling your Overwatch officer to go fuck themselves and then running into the caves to meta rush with your boys, throwing the round for marines or ruining it for the Xenos.
10 minutes and a demotion.

Literally killing somebody and ending their round unless they get either an aheal, or revived. Don't forget the broken bones, internal bleeding, organ damage, potentially lost limbs, and their equipment that was either dropped, forgotten, or looted on the field.
5-15 for Manslaughter. "Oopsie, killed a man!"
10-30 for Assault with a Deadly Weapon. That'll set them straight!
30-Removal for Murder. I don't understand why it's even an option for release. Either you have a psychopath or a case of one of the previous ones.

As pigeon said

But tbh I think the reason the timers are like they are is becuase you shouldnt be committing any crime, at all. A marine is meant to be a person that passed training, should be somewhat conditioned to not be insane

If we were literally a penal legion or psych ward I would understand "well, what do you expect from them?", but we're supposed to be working together as a ship. The laws are there so someone thinks "Heh, wouldn't it be funny to stun-prod an MP, cable cuff them, and then weld them in a locker with no comms?", sees that their whole round could end in confinement, and decide against it. The alternative is telling the victim to go fuck themselves, or having an admin come down to delete the locker and ban the player. Don't worry, now it's about the same as the mall-to-truck chase scene in Terminator 2.

Condense the laws so we don't need to worry about grey areas and specifics, keep the old times. Marine Law is there to protect other player's rounds, not interfere with yours.

[NoahKirchner]

The condensing of the law I'm fine with. I've had plenty of arguments with fellow players over fine lines and gray areas. That's the part I don't have a problem with.



I enjoy playing non-combat roles a fair amount of the time. This means roles such as CMO, CMP, SO, the sort. These are also close to being marine punching bags. We are often fucked with because we aren't expected to fight back or chase the marines down on the dropship. Let's see how this plays out.

An MP tries to arrest a marine in briefing. We've seen this a lot. They run to their squad shouting "fuck MPs!", MPs get stomped or shot, can't get to the marine on the dropship surrounded by a wave of marines disarming them. We know this is an issue because of the number of times and admin has had to intervene and heal the battered police or pacify the disobedient marines.
Between 2 and 10 minutes for making everyone's round get delayed around 5 to 20.

Stomping on a doctor who refused to give you your "Unga Juice" or oxycodone.
15 minutes minimum for assaulting a civilian who will probably save five lives that round and has no way to fight back.

Telling your Overwatch officer to go fuck themselves and then running into the caves to meta rush with your boys, throwing the round for marines or ruining it for the Xenos.
10 minutes and a demotion.

Literally killing somebody and ending their round unless they get either an aheal, or revived. Don't forget the broken bones, internal bleeding, organ damage, potentially lost limbs, and their equipment that was either dropped, forgotten, or looted on the field.
5-15 for Manslaughter. "Oopsie, killed a man!"
10-30 for Assault with a Deadly Weapon. That'll set them straight!
30-Removal for Murder. I don't understand why it's even an option for release. Either you have a psychopath or a case of one of the previous ones.

As pigeon said


If we were literally a penal legion or psych ward I would understand "well, what do you expect from them?", but we're supposed to be working together as a ship. The laws are there so someone thinks "Heh, wouldn't it be funny to stun-prod an MP, cable cuff them, and then weld them in a locker with no comms?", sees that their whole round could end in confinement, and decide against it. The alternative is telling the victim to go fuck themselves, or having an admin come down to delete the locker and ban the player. Don't worry, now it's about the same as the mall-to-truck chase scene in Terminator 2.

Condense the laws so we don't need to worry about grey areas and specifics, keep the old times. Marine Law is there to protect other player's rounds, not interfere with yours.

I see your point, but I think your examples would have the same outcomes if enforced now as if enforced later for the following reasons:

Example 1: An MP tries to arrest a marine in briefing. We've seen this a lot. They run to their squad shouting "fuck MPs!", MPs get stomped or shot, can't get to the marine on the dropship surrounded by a wave of marines disarming them. We know this is an issue because of the number of times and admin has had to intervene and heal the battered police or pacify the disobedient marines.
Between 2 and 10 minutes for making everyone's round get delayed around 5 to 20.

The charges for something like this would be a lot higher than 2-10 depending on how the MPs enforce it. This is assault, resisting arrest, hooliganism and you could argue neglect of duty. The total for that is 40 minutes without neglect of duty included, or 50 with it included. That is a massive amount of time to spend in the brig and it's certainly fitting for the shitshow that they cause.

Your second example, "Stomping on a doctor who refused to give you your "Unga Juice" or oxycodone.
15 minutes minimum for assaulting a civilian who will probably save five lives that round and has no way to fight back."

That is only the case if the marine who does this then willingly surrenders to the MPs, and theft could also be constituted in this if they then took the oxycodone, bumping the time up considerably. I do see a solution to this though, I think I should add to the description of neglect of duty "Or actively and intentionally preventing other crew members from adequately performing their duties". However, the punishment for this is still more than 15 minutes when you stack.

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All of these are meant to be stacked in situations where someone is causing a major disruption, I always assumed that was the point of the "60 minutes or more permabrig" timer. As it stands, the times marines can spend in the brig is a bit ridiculous. I absolutely see your concerns, but I think we are interpreting differently here, because I am certainly not implying that marines who majorly disrupt the rounds should only spent a few minutes in the brig, I am just differing on the means to give that marine suitable amounts of punishment time without also allowing someone who misclicks to be brigged for 30 minutes.