Get that PC garbo out of here. Ingame racism should be fine if it makes sense for the setting. Though personally, I feel like so many years later, the uscm should'a set their differences aside. Like gosh. This ain't 1970
Get that PC garbo out of here. Ingame racism should be fine if it makes sense for the setting. Though personally, I feel like so many years later, the uscm should'a set their differences aside. Like gosh. This ain't 1970
Now that this discussion is divorced from the report, I'd like to share my viewpoint on the matter as a whole because it has not left a very good impression of your server, your community, or your moderation team on me.
I'll start by saying that the biggest issue for me is that I feel like playing racist stereotypes and racist people is the ultimate definition of low-RP. If the central concept that your character is based on can be summed up as "Blacky McBlackman" or "Cletus the Klansman" then you have a problem with the very concept. Yes, I know that there's a guy who plays a Japanese mean who speaks entirely by adding -u on the end of his words and the occasional Japanese word. Yes, I know that there was apparently a stereotyical Tyrone who yelled about grape soda. I'm sure it's all hilarious to a certain kind of person, but it isn't to me. It's simple. It's childish. It doesn't actually encourage complex interaction or interesting dialogue, it's a one-trick pony and it'll continue to be a one-trick pony no matter what happens. It is what I expect of greytiding on Goonstation.
Rule 3 does state that there is to be no harassment, racism, homophobia, etc. The "Minor IC racism" clause is not baked into the rules whatsoever, and the rules do not allow for a subjective interpretation. When I said something about it on the Discord server I was encouraged to report any and all racism, but was quickly met with "Context is important." It became apparent that when judging what was and was not acceptable in terms of bigotry would be determined on a case by case basis, meaning that the rule is essentially enforced on a matter of opinion. Then, the in-game incident happened where moderators were playing stereotypes and using racist motivations in their characters. The conversation came up on Discord and it became quickly apparent that the general attitude was that this kind of thing is met with flippancy and instigation, because the Discord general chat then became a complete shitpost for about an hour. Your very own moderation team went on a nice long ramble about how okay it is to play black stereotypes and who can say what slurs and of course being racist is bad but it's a video game.
Regardless of whether or not it's allowed IC, to what extent, whose opinion it is, I do not think that allowing players to not only be racist, but also to play racist stereotypes without any depth or meaning actually adds anything, to anyone, ever. It's not funny. It's not interesting. It's never done in good taste. It's not good writing. It's not even good gameplay. All it does is drive a very simplistic conflict - someone yells a slur, someone punches somebody else, the MPs get involved, maybe they're arrested, maybe they're not, whatever. Blacky the Black Man and Asian McAsianface continue to be the same thing over and over. Nobody's actually growing from this, or learning from it, or having a meaningful conversation - if such things even exist in unga bunga land.
But that's all my opinion. I'm pretty sure most of this server doesn't agree on any point.
As for the rules, here's the thing. As-written, there is no allowance for any IC racism at all. So, if a new player joins the server, sees the rule about "No racism," and then sees someone yelling about dog-Jews or whatever, what are they supposed to think? Maybe they think, "I should report this," and when they do, they're told that context is important, IC racism is allowed, and just maybe, it's a moderator playing that character so it's okay. Maybe they use that opportunity next round to call someone a slur, and they get reported, and that moderator thinks it's inappropriate and punishes them? Where's the consistency? Where's the enforcement? Where's the standard?
So anyway, I don't think racism, bigotry, homophobia, etc. should be allowed either IC or OOC, at all, to any extent, because the minute someone is allowed to go an inch, they run a mile. Allowing bigotry in any capacity will allow people to skirt the rules, push the boundaries, and because moderators are people and have subjective opinions about every single case, sometimes people will get away with more than others. There needs to be an absolute, objective, non-negotiable standard, and I just can't see how saying "Sometimes you can be racist and sometimes you can't be" is ever going to be enforceable on a clear level.
Last edited by Jabber; 01-11-2019 at 11:19 PM.
Jabber, if you want "complex interaction or interesting dialogue" you've evidently come to the wrong server. Overtly stereotypical characters are MRP - they stay in character, they're consistent, but rather ridiculous. LowRP would involve breach of character, metagaming, etc. Ridiculous characters, if pulled off (like I believe both Tal's and Bancrose's characters are, after having seen them extensively), don't subtract from the overall experience. They may subtract from your experience but once again I think you're expecting the wrong thing from this server.
If there's one thing I agree with you, it's consistency. That has always been a colossal problem with CM staff, but here it's easily rectifiable - "Malicious Racism or Harassment is not allowed - IC racism is fine, but if it is intentionally vitriolic or meant to cause genuine insult, then it has crossed the line." This standard is clear, but allows for discretion and doesn't excessively limit the playerbase - people would still be able to joke around, but there would be a clear standard for what is too much.
Your proposed solution is borderline un-enforceable and would result in a colossal amount of unjust bans where moderators can't decide on what is "bigotry" or not. While I'm sure you have a very clear idea of what behavior you want to see in CM, realize that most of the community or the moderation staff does not share this viewpoint. Not only this, but you forget the environment of the server - it's a military ship full of drafted, rowdy marines. It's a lot less believable that there'd be no "bigotry" compared to some.
Racism should be allowed to a degree. Honestly if a person is making another person uncomfortable MODS ARE HERE TO HELP. I honestly can tell you that if you EVER find something offensive I'll ask the other player to stop and probably make a note about it. That being said I can't tolerate slurs. Sometimes they are hard to see even in jest.
From a rulepoint perspective: Its hard to enforce.
Make it briggable via IC means. I am tired of the racism I see in the game, it really doesen't belong in it, however, I understand this is the internet so I am taking that in to account and thus my reason for making it a briggable offence.
I really don't get why we would change the rules over something that isn't even a problem. Who cares if friends use 'muh big bad word' with each other its a fucking video game and words only have power if you let them. We all end up in the same fucking place, D-chat at the end of the day and those who do have issues with shit like this normally get weeded out or leave real quick.
Honestly I think the only time staff should step in on this matter is if somebody is greifing like all the blacks on the server or throwing all the gays into the firing chamber. If that doesn't fit our high and moral superior leaders though, Fuck it give the MP's another job to do. Be the feel feel police and arrest those who dare utter any forbidden words that dare might offend some sensitive snowflake.
I would like to propose something in addition, after thinking about the core of the issue I had with my player report.
1. I don't think staff should be allowed to play characters who might cause rules issues. I don't think it's appropriate that a moderator, someone who is responsible for interpreting and enforcing the rules, should also be causing problems that may require other staff to moderate. If I ahelp something and say "I think this is too far" and another staff member tells me "Well that's a moderator playing that character" I am immediately going to think "So nothing will be done about this, why even bother?" A moderator should not be playing a character in such a way that it gets ahelped.
2. Staff shouldn't be allowed to use slurs, IC or OOC, even in jest. There's nothing that really makes me feel less confident in someone's ability to be objective when they're already tossing around words like faggot because they can, even if it's entirely a joke. I'm supposed to think moderators are fair and impartial and in a place to make good judgment, but then 'lol dis nigga' scroll past and I know my issues are going to get tossed aside. Even if they never do it in an "official" capacity, that moderator tag is next to everything they say or do.
Racism should be kept as an in-character issue and taken on a case-by-case issue. If someone is actually offended and reports it, try to curb it. Otherwise, let the players sort it out. The US Marines are some of the most intentionally insulting people on the planet and the Colonial Marines are no different. Keep in mind that the Marines in Aliens are based on the USMC of the 70's from the viewpoint of 1986.
Resident canon stickler.
CM in a nutshell:
"perscription_google" - CM code
If you are getting ass blasted by words on the internet then generally you need to turn off your computer and reevaluate your life. Not only do you see D-chat not care for this shit they don't continue it when they die, they'd rather salt over a shit medic or cheer on an MP getting fragged by some naked marine. The times you see this are people role playing a character, being extremely consistent I might add, or you see it used in blatant jest which can be seen from space and an autistic person could work out with ease.
The current rules are good, in fact they serve the purpose required. The only thing the administration needs to do is to think about a procedure that encompasses a hands off approach and enforce it with consistency. As some have remarked, they've been warned for saying nigger once IC while others have more flexibility. The perfect system is only that has an almost complete hands off approach that gives freedom to people to RP as they like so long as it's not some text speak nonsense or lore breaking blah blah blah. In short, thick skins, stop being offended by text on a screen in a video game.
For my stance on this I'd say leave the rule as is and leave marine law as is. You roleplay as grown marines and if you can't take a dig or banter directed your way, you wont last long. By the time the speech is an issue the charge for disorderly conduct already covers this as it turns into a fist fight. Heck if you really want to get on the nerves of people and get all bent out of shape, don't be surprised when people leave you in situations you may need help in. That's life and as much of a PC snowflake you are, others around you are not and detest your attitude. God knows that if the rules were changed to reflect one report which I would sum up as "OY VEY!" the report, what would people's natural reaction be when some characters have to be toned down or knocked off the roster? Simple, people will double down and laugh at you, I would and I play some straight laced marine with a slight streak of saying shit to offend someone after they shot me in the back or ordered me to die. Heck if the rules surrounding this went closer to free speech or more relaxed anyway, I'd be extremely happy.
I'll speak from experience as a server admin in another game for around 7~ years (I think). We were a euro based server that valued the 1st, in fact we had the complete freedom of speech so long as it did not effect game play (Ie. TK's, grief, RDM, glitching etc.) We had rules and that was what you followed, if you broke them you went down the path laid out. We were ultra lax with speech and while someone would be ass blasted, it was generally laughed at and they'd leave the server to play another one. I can only count the amount of people related to that on one hand and the server had people from the US / Canada all the way to Thailand play due to how lax we were and how people didn't give a fuck as to what you said. The game has to be played and so long as the game's rules are followed who gave a shit and that was the mentality shared by everyone who were regulars. If things became extremely heated in mics we'd personally mute them all and give them a quick word saying that due to the argument taking over the game's voice communication, saying to simmer down and take it to text chat or private. Sole reason was that others couldn't talk over the argument to play the game. The only rule around speech we had was that it needed to be English in voice chat. The amount of problems this caused? next to none. People argued and shit talked but due to that people didn't take it out on shooting each other in the back and if anything, made a community.
God forbid there being a council for speech rules and long ass debates over what is or is not acceptable in the grand scheme of things. The consequences of limiting shit further is that you will get more copy paste characters, a community that has to tread on egg shells, further encroachment because if you give a PC snowflake an inch they will take an astronomical unit if they get their way once, more reports because the previous point means that encroachment will come from reports. I could go on about this but my general stance has always been that the closer to free speech one attains the better it actually becomes in general. I've seen servers and communities go down this path and most of them now are either dead or extremely shit with no content worth looking at.
Imagine getting banned for saying the n-word but calling someone a "motherfucking asshole dipshit fuck face unicorn munching dickhead" is A-OK.
Words are only as powerful as you let them be. Someone could call you a fruitcake and it could be the most offensive thing on the planet, but getting told to "fuck off" is just a general occurance since its not that offensive to you.
Just let it be an IC Issue that MP's can resolve, and if its REALLY bad (like the guy just went out of cryo and tails people while spamming "KIKES EX DEE") then mods will deal with it, easy peasy.
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