So the current winrate...

[Rocco Ward]

Just going to repost something about shotguns from an old thread.

That said I want to put something in perspective:

Number of buckshot PB shots until xeno is KO

[Y = Young, M = Mature, E = Elder, A = Ancient]

1 hit KO

• larva
• drone
• runner
• sentinel
• lurker (Y-M)
• burrower (Y-M-E)
• spitter (Y-M-E)

2 hit KO

• lurker (E-A)
• burrower (A)
• defender (? maybe 2-3 ?)
• spitter (A)
• carrier (???)
• hivelords (???)
• boilers (???)

3-5 hits KO

• prae
• rav
• crusher

5-8 hits KO

• queen

Number of slashes until marine is KO

~5 slashes KO

• ravager
• queen

~10 slashes KO

• runner
• lurker
• prae
• warrior

~15 slashes KO

• burrower
• spitter
• crusher
• runner
• carrier
• hivelord
• defender

~20 slashes KO

• sentinel
• boiler
• drone

Seems pretty fair eh? All T1 unga dungas get a death weapon that is arguably more deadly than some specialist weapons. I've seen queens and ravagers take +7 slashes to kill off a single marine. THERE IS NO XENO CASTE THAT EXIST THAT CAN INSTAKILL MARINES IN 1-2 HITS. PERIOD. (nor should there realistically be) Also since this game is 80% marine players, I'm not surprised that most of the conversation is overwhelming negative in regards to xeno complaints.

The bottom line is this: Shotguns needs a weakness. Since xenos are melee oriented, they can't fight effectively with ranged attacks other than a few side castes that do laughable damage output or easilyy avoidable attacks. The way it is now, marine are more deadly in CQC with buckshot shotguns than xenos. That's a fact. What is the solution? Here are some realistic options:

Nerf ammo capacity (make extended ammo capacity an attachment)
Nerf shotgun damage output (but give BCs a big damage boost to restore to the same output)
Nerf pumping time (add an attacthment to decrease this)
Nerf AoE or stun (maybe more attacthments or BC that adds this capacity)

Personally I'd experiment with lowering the ammo capacity first. See the effects. Marines shouldn't be able to spray and pray shotgun buckshots like it's a SMG. If it still seems overpowered, I'd drop the damage quite a bit and let a BC boost the damage output to the same level it currently has.

Also something has to be done about one handed firing and pumping. You should only be allowed to pump with two hands.

[Just L]

Runners/Lurkers/Crushers/Defenders/Warriors

I don't know who you are, you getting noted/banned for breaking rules isn't bias, I'd drop the victim complex. If you think I act unfairly towards you I'd direct you to a staff report or DMs as this isn't the place for that conversation.

I already know staff reports don't work most of the time. You're just another mod anyway, it wouldn't do any good. Runners and lurkers are super fast, the warrior lunge is longer than the shotgun's effective range, defender isn't supposed to fight marines on it's own, and trying to PB a crusher is dangerous if they aren't young.

Just going to repost something about shotguns from an old thread.

This is a very biased list. It also ignores the fact that xenos have far more ways to knock marines down and make them easy to shoot than xenos do.

[xenofood]

Notice how most of those things are not being dead. I've observed marines slashed and acided to dead being back at the front lines in a minute.

A fair point, but any of those things sometimes follow being killed on the frontlines, hence why I mentioned them. The thing is, xenos have a lot of things to counter marines. Acid that can slip them, bone shards that force you to retreat and dig them out otherwise you risk broken bones, acid that forces you to retreat and roll on the floor otherwise you're in much greater pain, any pain slows down a marine, any splinted (but not fixed) bones slow down a marine, there is a LOT that xenos can do to marines quickly, forcing them to retreat for at least a little while, whereas xenos can only be stunned by shotguns, aren't slowed down at lower health, and passively heal + move faster while on weeds.

I'd love to see some proper stats on it, but I'm 100% sure that marine permadeath rate is much higher than xenos'.

Yes, but the old pre-new-nerf stun time was still enough for a stun to be a death sentence with +1 marine.

I will say that once, exactly once in my life I was able to kill a xeno like this. It's actually a funny story, honestly.

We were on Corsat in one of the jungle biodomes and nothing was really going on. One marine got bored and started clearing out the plant growth around us. When he started clearing a plant in a corner, a sentinel popped out and after a brief wtf moment, I stunned it with a slug while other marines opened fire. Then it got up and I stunned it again. It was running away from us in a 2-tile narrow jungle path and wasn't sidestepping, so I was able to stun him a third time and eventually he died.

I still count that as the luckiest kill I've ever gotten. It very nearly got away and it would have if it wasn't for the other marines there. And that was before the latest nerf that drops slug stun down by 0.2 seconds to either 0.7 or 0.9, I forget which one.

Xenos can easily push marines if they actually use teamwork.

Whatever happened to that, by the way? Did it just disappear, or get replaced by metarushes?

I very clearly remember, several weeks ago, I was in Bravo squad on LV and guarding east LZ. Most of the time it was boring guard duty, but then for the last like 2 hours of the round, I was constantly being accosted by a spitter to the point where I could not leave the post at all even if I wanted to, while the actual fight was going on elsewhere. At some point, the spitter brought friends and it was only due to me radio-ing periodical updates on my situation, that someone noticed me screaming for help and we were able to drive them away at the cost of destroyed cades.

So what happened to spitters and runners harassing various multiple barricades and guard posts, keeping a lot of marines occupied while the actual bulk of the hive force attacks at the weakest point. I've seen that happen, and it was a slaughter every time.

Maybe it's all the new metarushes nowadays, not enough time and resources to apply proper tactics when at 12:40 you already have a front line combat to focus on.

What we REALLY need is some actual, factual stats. Time of day, amount of people, death rates, win rates, and compare that over like 100 rounds and start figuring out balance from there.

[ChainsawMullet]

Just going to repost something about shotguns from an old thread.

Several things:

1) Xenos have a million different tools to handle shotgunners - neuro, pounce, acid spray, gas, lunge, the list goes on - shotgunners only have their shotguns. That's it. All they can do is PB you, if you unironically lose a 1v1 to a shotgunner as anything but a builder caste you're the problem.
2) Yes there is a caste that can 2-hit marines. It's called Dancer prae and it's really disgusting. You can also argue vet rav vs no-helmet marines, since they can 1-hit decap. Not like Xenos even need to 2-hit marines since they have a versatile arsenal of long stuns and slows that make killing any marine a fucking doddle.
3) Reducing ammo won't change anything, so sure I'm happy for that to happen :^)
4) Pumping time is literally irrelevant since it can be skipped.
5) You can't "spray and pray" buckshot, if you do anything but a PB, the damage is pathetic and just a waste of a shot.
6) One-handed pumping is fine, literally get good.

If you're a xeno and you think buckshot is overpowered, it's you, not the shotgun. We literally just had a buckshot nerf and xeno buff and xenos are still clowning, because it's not the gun, it's the players.

[CABAL]

runners/lurkers/crushers/defenders/warriors

i don't know who you are, you getting noted/banned for breaking rules isn't bias, i'd drop the victim complex. If you think i act unfairly towards you i'd direct you to a staff report or dms as this isn't the place for that conversation.

P o u n c e / L u n g e

Defenders as name suggests: Defend.

[NoahKirchner]

It is not an ad hominem to state that I do not think you are capable of doing developer work when you do not fully grasp the game. That's not how ad hominem works. If I said you were a bad developer because you don't shower, that is an ad hominem.

Xenos can easily push marines if they actually use teamwork. The vast majority of xeno players just want to be 'badass lone wolf xeno who solos 20 marines' instead of an organized hive of killing machines. You don't even need to be particularly good as spitter to hold back marines, you just need to be able to switch between spit types. Boilers being overpowered has been an issue forever and it is just accepted as fact now, since it does not seem to be changing any time soon.

I have been playing SS13 for over 6 years and CM for about 3 or 4. I stopped playing xeno about a year ago due to them becoming far too easy to play. Xenos are also not outclasses in cqc by buckshot, buckshot is simply the only weapon that a regular marine has that can actually threaten and punish a xeno for making mistakes. That is why you see xenos complain about it so much. If the M41A was capable of slowing down xenos by shooting them with it, or the M39 actually did damage, you would see xenos complain about those too.

Xenomorphs in CM currently have two methods of attacking the marines, for clarification purposes I will refer to them as "Screech" and "Skirmish".

When the queen is unavailable xenos are almost always skirmishing, they rarely mass up because doing that is suicide - they have no means to stun enough marines to not get PB'd to death whenever they push, 1-3 xenos pushing out at a time with some kind of stun cover, say RG acid spray, neuro gas, etc, kill/infect 1-2 marines, repeat.

When the queen is available, her screech allows xenos to play differently and actually push through marine defences because they are at a lesser risk of getting PB'd and nae nae'd on, but this requires the queen to be off of ovi.

I will now illustrate my point about xenomorphs being unable to push.

https://imgur.com/80338c83-0edb-430a-9311-4f3288596d28

^ That is the most common situation for 3+ hour LV rounds. Xenomorphs in that position are unable to push out of that choke because they consistently lose in CQC. The only way for the xenos to push out of that is for the xenos to screech, this causes massive stalemates. If the xenomorphs lack a boiler to hold that choke, marines will take the caves 8/10 times easy because marines, due to PB, are the undisputed kings of CQC. TTK with point blank buckshot is literally 0 for 1/2 the hive, for the others they are too squishy to actually have a stand up fight vs a marine, and the only two xenomorphs which are capable of halting that push aside from a boiler (hedhehog rav, RG prae) have long cooldowns on their abilities to prevent marines from pushing into the caves.

Boilers right now are retarded, but they are necessary because without them xenos are incapable of skirmishing. They require that gas cover to not get immediately cucked by shotgun spam - EVERY marine has now been made better than xenomorphs when it comes to CQC because nearly every marine has a shotgun. The only ways I see xenos actually securing decent kills today are through mechanics that are cheesy, IE neuro-gas spam, warrior cheese, et cetera. Xenomorph teamwork is centered around the queen because their abilities lack synergy. The only xenomorphs able to support others in a push are A. hedhehog rav, B. some strains of prae, C. boiler, but the hedgehog ravs and RG do not make other xenos immune from getting immediately demolished by PB spam.

So what am I saying here, should PB buckshot be fucked? No, because marines also have to deal with retarded xeno cheese, but right now the entire backbone of the marine meta is built off of using a cheese weapon because they lack any other choices.

--

Bringing up how long you've played CM for is pointless posturing, I have played since 2016 too, that doesn't matter. CM today is so vastly different in terms of balance than it was in 2016 that having played since then is entirely irrelevant and it gives you no greater understanding of the meta than someone who started in november. Xenos and marines ALWAYS whine about shit, that is the nature of SS13, marines whine about neuro gas, xenos whine about PB, that is the nature of things. They're not easier to play now than they were in 2016 when you could literally put two huggers in your hands as a runner, drop two huggers next to a marine and drag them away, each caste tends to be more dynamic and the introduction of strains has overall raised the skill ceiling.

Xenos are undeniably outclassed in CQC by buckshot, xenos DO have one click stuns, but these stuns have nuance to them. For lurkers and runners it prevents them from moving for a bit just like it prevents the marine from moving and allows other marines to help the marine, it also has a cooldown in excess of five seconds. Neuro spit is no longer the hell that it used to be, and warrior lunge (despite it being retardedly powerful) severely slows the warrior down. PB buckshot basically gives marines the ability to repeatedly lunge any xenomorph under T3 and do more damage in one hit than any one xeno ability can. Ontop of this, marines almost always outnumber xenos in any given situation, meaning that xenos can't use their one click stuns properly in response.

I think the person here who does not fully grasp the game is you, by your own admission ""I stopped playing xeno about a year ago", you are missing perspective on half of the conversation you are having. Are shotguns necessary given the state of the game right now? YES, are they also cheesy as fuck? YES, both of these sentiments can be true - but if you've never played against PB shotguns then you fundamentally lack the knowledge of half of their operation.

And that statement WAS an ad-hominem, you weren't attacking the position that I was putting forward, you were attacking my understanding of the game, but that part isn't important - insulting people over balance in a 2d spessman game completely unprovoked is retarded.

[NoahKirchner]

Several things:

1) Xenos have a million different tools to handle shotgunners - neuro, pounce, acid spray, gas, lunge, the list goes on - shotgunners only have their shotguns. That's it. All they can do is PB you, if you unironically lose a 1v1 to a shotgunner as anything but a builder caste you're the problem.
2) Yes there is a caste that can 2-hit marines. It's called Dancer prae and it's really disgusting. You can also argue vet rav vs no-helmet marines, since they can 1-hit decap. Not like Xenos even need to 2-hit marines since they have a versatile arsenal of long stuns and slows that make killing any marine a fucking doddle.
3) Reducing ammo won't change anything, so sure I'm happy for that to happen :^)
4) Pumping time is literally irrelevant since it can be skipped.
5) You can't "spray and pray" buckshot, if you do anything but a PB, the damage is pathetic and just a waste of a shot.
6) One-handed pumping is fine, literally get good.

If you're a xeno and you think buckshot is overpowered, it's you, not the shotgun. We literally just had a buckshot nerf and xeno buff and xenos are still clowning, because it's not the gun, it's the players.

Pounce is arguably the most common xeno stun, but importantly it's only a counter when the marine is alone - marines normally travel in packs and so one on one stuns for xenos tend to be suicide if they're using them in a group. That same mentality can be applied to lunge arguably but lunge makes me want to shit myself and die. Acid spray and gas are primarily defensive stuns, which is good because it's the niche they're meant to fill, but they don't deal the massive amount of damage of a PB.

I am not familiar enough with dancer prae on it to make a comment on it, but veteran-ravs are killing marines who made the decision to deploy without a helmet, that is the marine's fault. As for the long stuns and slows, agreed, but marines also tend to outnumber the xenomorphs at least 2-1, meaning that those stuns are not effecting every marine at any given time, and when used in large groups they tend not to be followed up on because doing so would be suicide for the xeno. PBs, though, deal massive damage AND stun which is something that nothing but being hit by the neuro gas blob does for the benos (Again, aside from maybe dancer prae, but like I said I am not familiar enough to comment on)

I agree, reducing ammo is kinda doodoo

Pumping time is low, which makes sense for a shotgun but consider that no xenos have an ability that stuns and does decent damage with an equal cooldown, but nearly every marine does and also the marines outnumber the aliens.

"Spray and pray" works as a stun sometimes against runners/lurkers but agreed, the issue is that there are really no downsides to massing xenos for PBs and T3s have few defenses against massing ungas with PBs, not even in death does their blood deal damage, and half of the T3s are squishy enough to make them genuinely unable to frontline. The other half of T3s are specialty and don't frontline either.

One handed pumping is based and redpilled

--I think overpowered is a matter of relativism. Relative to xeno cheese, buckshot is not overpowered, but taken at face value it's just as unfun to play against as things like getting hit in the face with neuro gas or being flung 800000 tiles away by a warrior.

[Just L]

Crusher, Prae, and Ravager are all fully capable of being your front line T3s. One or two ravager slashes will usually cause a broken bone or organ damage, too, and they won't die from PBs since T3s are usually mature by the time marines manage to get on the ground. I stopped playing xeno regularly about a year ago, I still rarely will pop in as one to see if there is anything new or interesting for them (there isn't, generally speaking).

I am also not attacking your position, I am saying that based on what you have said you would not do a good job as a developer.

Your imgur link is broken so I can't tell what your point is there. It's entirely possible for xenos to get through marine defenses without the queen, also. You once again require TEAMWORK for this. Have some castes melt walls on flanks of the FOB, have the crushers run over metal cades that are not guarded by a M56D, since they can shrug off enough to bust the cades down with some support. Hell, you can even just have a boiler shoot their regular gas at the cades until they melt, since the engies cannot possibly keep up with all the damage the cades will take from gas+xenos hitting the cades.

The entire marine strategy is also not based solely off of PB buckshots, good commanders and squads rely greatly on fire support as well. The only weapon the average PFC can get that is anywhere near as good as a laser designator and semi-decent pilot or mortar operator is... the buckshot shotgun. Yes, the majority of marines are carrying shotguns now, because they don't have the ability to use anything else and have a chance of even defending themselves from a xeno, let alone kill one. Buckshot isn't even overpowered, it is simply the only usable weapon. Whether or not it isn't fun to play against doesn't matter quite as much as having zero alternate options to even TRY something new or fun. If shotguns get nerfed significantly without compensation for the other weapons, the game will turn into even more of an artillery match between squad leaders and boilers than it already is.

Which brings me back to my main point. The majority of people good with the current meta are on the marine side. CAS is somewhat more difficult to coordinate than a boiler spamming neurogas at a chokepoint, which is why it is so powerful too. The meta is literally 'Have enough guys with shotguns between the xenos and your squad lead and hope the POs and handful of robust marines can kill them'.

[NoahKirchner]

Crusher, Prae, and Ravager are all fully capable of being your front line T3s. One or two ravager slashes will usually cause a broken bone or organ damage, too, and they won't die from PBs since T3s are usually mature by the time marines manage to get on the ground. I stopped playing xeno regularly about a year ago, I still rarely will pop in as one to see if there is anything new or interesting for them (there isn't, generally speaking).

I am also not attacking your position, I am saying that based on what you have said you would not do a good job as a developer.

Your imgur link is broken so I can't tell what your point is there. It's entirely possible for xenos to get through marine defenses without the queen, also. You once again require TEAMWORK for this. Have some castes melt walls on flanks of the FOB, have the crushers run over metal cades that are not guarded by a M56D, since they can shrug off enough to bust the cades down with some support. Hell, you can even just have a boiler shoot their regular gas at the cades until they melt, since the engies cannot possibly keep up with all the damage the cades will take from gas+xenos hitting the cades.

The entire marine strategy is also not based solely off of PB buckshots, good commanders and squads rely greatly on fire support as well. The only weapon the average PFC can get that is anywhere near as good as a laser designator and semi-decent pilot or mortar operator is... the buckshot shotgun. Yes, the majority of marines are carrying shotguns now, because they don't have the ability to use anything else and have a chance of even defending themselves from a xeno, let alone kill one. Buckshot isn't even overpowered, it is simply the only usable weapon. Whether or not it isn't fun to play against doesn't matter quite as much as having zero alternate options to even TRY something new or fun. If shotguns get nerfed significantly without compensation for the other weapons, the game will turn into even more of an artillery match between squad leaders and boilers than it already is.

Which brings me back to my main point. The majority of people good with the current meta are on the marine side. CAS is somewhat more difficult to coordinate than a boiler spamming neurogas at a chokepoint, which is why it is so powerful too. The meta is literally 'Have enough guys with shotguns between the xenos and your squad lead and hope the POs and handful of robust marines can kill them'.

Crushers are not front line T3s, their entire gameplay loop is running in and out and not remaining on the front line. Ravagers are incredibly squishy, and have to do the same thing - run in, use ability, dip immediately. Some praetorian strains can frontline, but their strains allow them to specialize so much that only one or two can really actually brawl.

https://imgur.com/a/za7Na00

Xenos cannot push an inverse corner full of marines with PB buckshot shotguns without the Queen, of the endless LV rounds i've played, when at containers, xenos ALWAYS require the queen to push out or they lose like 3+ T3s.

You disprove your argument here. "Laser-designators and fire support are good, but because most marines cannot get laser-designators, they take the second best thing". Fire support requires multiple competent people to use and it is incredibly specialized. If EVERY marine has access to a shotgun, then it creates the backbone of any marine tactic used. Overpowered is a relative term, right now buckshot is the only weapons that the marines have to keep up with cheese, but buckshot being cheesy and xenos being cheesy are not mutually exclusive - both can be true at the same time. All weapons and all xenos need a rework to fix this problem, in my opinion, because the core confrontation between marines and xenos is literally entirely predicated on cheese. Fun is 100% the most important aspect of a videogame, right now both teams have tactics and strategies entirely based around unfun mechanics.



Position == argument, I meant you are not attacking my argument. Ad-hominem is attacking a person instead of their argument when it is unrelated to their argument.

[Just L]

I define the front line as "The place that marines and xenos are going to get within CQC range/one screen away from one another"
So crushers, ravagers, praetorians, warriors, defenders, etc. are all your front line, with the boiler right behind the front line. It is similar for marines, with the front line being where most of the marines are on offense, or the cade line they are behind on defense. Squad leaders, medics, specs, and sometimes engineers are usually inbetween the front and back lines.
In your example image above, the caves east of containers and north of sand temple is usually a front line. It is a terrible one for marines, but they go there anyway.

How often do you see xenos flank containers? LV usually has 3-5 main entrances as well as tunnels that the xenos can flank with. I have seen a number of marine pushes on the east caves crushed between boiler neuro spam and a handful of good xenos coming from the central, central-west, or far west t-fort and inflatable fort areas. Fire support is only good when xenos are either stationary at choke points or on the offensive, due to the vast majority of areas xenos will fight in being CAS-proof.

Yes, it is risky to do a flank, but it's also fun and engaging for both sides. It's an 'oh shit' moment until one side manages to overtake the other with it. Both sides have decent tools for flanking, but xenos are MUCH better at it due to the speed they can move from one area to another, and the few numbers needed to hold a chokepoint.