Remove Whitelists

[Arbs]

I don't really think that argument makes sense. There is already a role that is essentially the exact same thing as the Captain, and which can have the same influence over the round both mechanically and roleplay-wise and which is not whitelisted, yet we don't get tons of comdom XOs.

It's the opposite, really; I prefer many of the XOs we get, like Goosen Dagen and Finnian Cottier, over COs like Donald Weinstein.

And if that does happen, I don't think it'd be any worse for the marine's chances of victory than having Katashi Juro or Bill Carson as their captain.

I've been playing SS13 for 7 years, in my experience, most of the "comdom" captains are people who are intentionally acting that way. Very rarely is someone who acts like a total moron to the point of self destructiveness an actual "random baldie." It was pretty popular to find "comdom" captains hysterically funny for a while, so people would do it on purpose. And if someone went overboard, or repeatedly offended, there were already ways to deal with that before whitelists were implemented. You could kick them, ban them, warn them, or just talk to them.

I'm not saying that we should suddenly start accepting a poorer quality of roleplaying. What I'm saying is that we actually have a pretty solid quality of roleplaying despite being a TDM server, and having a whitelist is unnecessary and does more harm than good.

Interesting thing is that your favorite XOs, both Finnian Cottier and Goosen Dagen have CO whitelists and do play CO as well.

Now it is your right to have an opinion and I see where you're coming from, but I don't see the reason for whitelists to be removed. Perhaps you've been around for 7 years in SS13, but I barely recognize you around here.

I understand that even whitelisted players have their goofy moments as well, but that is not related to the idea of a whitelist. There's a few things you have to understand. The Whitelist is not there to make anyone special. The whitelist is not there to make anyone immune to moderation, server or community rules.

If there is a server rule violation, staff can and will act to it immediately. The reason why you don't see that happening is because the players themselves do not break server rules.

The whitelist simply serves as a selection process for whether or not someone can be trusted with that role and the responsibility/privileges that come with it. Perhaps the application does not filter everything, but it does filter out the most. Just take a look at the denied applications. Those people would be your COs. Naturally it is a constantly improving process. I can at least speak for the CO whitelist.

Though my biggest problem is this. People complaining and just throwing it up in the air. If you see whitelisted players not being up to standard, then please I want you to report them and contact the respective council people so that we can process it.

You think a whitelist is lame and should be gone, that's your opinion. I cannot agree to removing a whitelist for more than 200 people just because you had a bad experience with a predator or found a CO's gimmick unfunny. And in fact you'd be surprised what casual people would be able to do if these positions were open to everyone. You might as well just delete the role.

I have personally interacted with multiple whitelisted players in the past few months who were roleplaying at a lower standard than the PFCs in my squad, including COs. I am also certain that there are plenty of players who would make fantastic COs or Synths, but simply don't want to make an application, either because they don't want to deal with the effort involved or because they are principled against it for a variety of reasons.

Who are these players? Why did you not bring these cases specifically to me or the other council members? Document the cases. Bring them forth.

And so what if there's a player that would be a great CO/Synth/Pred but can't bother with the effort of making an application? That's their own decision. Nobody else's fault but theirs.

Whether you like it or not, everything is there for a reason. You're judging something that you don't understand.

[Vispainius]

I'd be fine with the CO whitelist going away, although not synth unless there is a change to multiple synths per round. For predators, making fewer restrictions but limit of 2/3 preds per round. I think there's too many vague rules with predators, which could be much more concrete. Ex. 'Don't have too much influence on the round.' to '2 T3 kills, 4 T2 kills per round.'

This is going to be unprofessional, and that's because I believe the suggestion is based on a misunderstood belief around whitelists and the involved roles.

Personally, I'd love that fuckin limit of kills. That said, I think its stupid as all hell. Not because its too little but because its too constraining and yet, at the same time, too much. 4 T2 kills !? 2 T3 kills?!

Bro. As a Predator myself, see my profile and signature, I can tell you most of us barely kill let alone target more than 2 marine and/or 2 xenos every round. And on that note, of that, I can safely say we rarely kill more than 3 marines or 1-2 xenos.

Now, all that said. I should make sure I clarify here.
Setting a specific limit on kills, be it too high or too low is not a good idea. I think it sets a new precedent and removes the player from roleplay (in predator's case). We are a roleplay role and not concerned about "how many killz we get for the lols" as the quality of the RP involved, quality and worthiness of the prey (tying into roleplay) and the experience everyone gets out of it.

That is the optimal goal for our role from everything I know as a Predator player and Commander.

I think we need a pred/synth whitelist, but i dont see a problem with making CO available to everyone, maybe have a psuedo whitelist for competent players to spawn as some admiral type if they have a fun gimmick they want to try

Agreed on the Pred/Synth player whitelist... but I maintain that CO should also remain whitelisted. Always held that belief too, long before being whitelisted. I think Bancrose already explained it but I'll reiterate in my own point of view.

Basically it comes down to the responsibilities involved in CO. You are correct in a way about CO being available to everyone but I think, where we diverge in opinion so far, is that the role that everyone can have is XO. XO is now the Commander in name while the CO is the Captain. What this means for "responsibilities" and "rank IC" is actually quite important. The Commander is like the boss of all the marines and the operation but, at the end of the day, the Captain is the one in charge of everything from the Commander and over even the Military Police (for the most part) to the lowliest grunt.

As far as in game responsibilities goes, this is actually quite important. The CO, having immunity to marine law mostly and ultimate authority, is probably the closest thing you'll get to a admin in the game walking around as a character. You gotta understand. The Cpt. isn't just running the ship and its marines. He's running the round. And as such, it falls on him to deal with issues and people as he wishes. A Cpt. can fuck up your day if they wanted to. But will he? In 99% of the case, he's not going to just fuck up your day because he can. He might do something for the operation and round that would fuck your day up, but he's not going to ruin you because he can.

His responsibilities are hefty on their shoulders. They can BE ANYONE they wish to for the slightest provocation if they feel it impedes or endangers the operation, they manage usually on any given round around 80 + people with no oversight, they have just about the best individual non-spec firearm on the ship with incendiary rounds, they are immune to most of marine law and it takes admin involvement to oust them (yes, even in mutinies you'd need to contact a admin), and to top it all off they run the operation at the end of the day.

Additionally, then you have perspectives. A whitelisted CO always receives more authority and respect from the crew compared to the XO. Whether that's due to fear or respect � or a healthy mix of both in my opinion... is up to the CO. But the fact remains. Only the CO can truly put the fear of God into a marine or hold the highest respect. Why? Because they are not only the highest figure one can look up to, but they hold so much authority they are immune to the law and if they wished to, could execute you extrajudicially in a way not even admins could likely save you from if the CO has a good reason.
A XO, Executive Officer, is the role for the common player who wishes to become the Executive of the ship, and as the term suggests, the one who puts the operation into action. But... the whitelisted role of Captain, Commanding Officer, is the be all - end all of normally seen ranks on the Almayer. They, as their name suggests, command and lead the operation. Its a key difference that seems insignificant in the terms, but is quite the difference in the realities of effect.\\

TLDR :
The ranks of Commander and Executive Officer essentially moved 'up' a little in perceived responsibility.

Before it used to be Commanding Officer job (CO) = Commander
Executive Officer job (XO) = Executive Officer.

Now it is: Commanding Officer job (CO) = Captain
Executive Officer job (XO) = Commander

Subtle difference but it is a difference. In short, Commander (XO) is now the non-whitelisted CO while Captain is now the whitelisted oversight of the non-whitelisted CO. This whitelisted oversight holds both more OOC and IC respect among the marines, responsibility for the round/role/marines, responsibility to stay in line according to rules, and trust (good or bad its a trust in their ability to be a CO at the end of the day)


If you want to play CO without a whitelist, play XO. If you want to have the extra responsibility both in the rules and in the game for round/marines, get whitelisted

[ThesoldierLLJK]

For predators I always advocated a secret society type instead of an application.
Don�t call us we�ll call you

But I was told

iTs ToO mUcH FaVoRiTiSm

[Vispainius]

For predators I always advocated a secret society type instead of an application.
Don�t call us we�ll call you

But I was told

iTs ToO mUcH FaVoRiTiSm

Hmm. I see the risks people were thinking about m8. Also see the benefits.

That said�.

you illuminati much?

[Steelpoint]

A secret society system would foster the ideals of favouritism, even if the concept endeavoured to avoid that, I believe people would nonetheless associate Predators with favouritism.

Whitelists I consider to be necessary evils. Predators can be so overwhelming powerful that they could easily curb stomp a faction, they come off as weaker in game (depending on the state of balance) due to the major restrictions of the honour code, but guaranteed if the gloves were taken off a Predator could easily take on a Marine battalion or a Xeno hive single handedly.

Synthetics are not even Human, at times it can take some willpower to hold back the more Human emotions, especially since Humans can be so annoying to deal with.

Commanders might seem the most likely candidate to argue against a whitelist, but they are more than just a higher ranked XO. They hold certain privileges that can be easier to abuse, the power of the battlefield execution, (near) immunity to marine law, and a greater influence on the round due to their position.

[Bishopil]

>they show how literate you are
You can easily tell how literate someone is by the rest of their application, you don't need a TL;DR story to find that out. Even the "Why do you want to play this role?" section is usually long enough to see if they can last three paragraphs without fucking up their grammar/spelling.

>they show how competent you are
You mean at how they understand what they're supposed to be doing? How does a CO application for example with a story saying "Joe Sixpack was recruited into the corps at an early age and nearly failed his physical requirement, but worked his way up and got lots of medals and trained hard to become a competent officer to avenge his fallen brother" translate into how well the commander knows where marines need to be on the ground, when to deal out BEs, when to send MPs onto the ground, etc?

>they show how you understand the role
Obviously not in any in-game sense since there's nothing about your character's origins that tells me about how quickly you can preform surgery as a synth, I assume you mean from a lore sense but again, someone's understanding of the lore can be established with questions about aspects of the role and how they would act rather than a 500 page Aliens fanfic.

You don't seem to have a whitelist so that pretty much solidifies my point. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Anywhoo, to answer your first "point"
Stories also show creativity and your ability to craft scenarios with your character. It's a good way to show that you care.

Second "point".
That Joe Sixpack story wouldn't get accepted. Maybe instead of that, write about HOW your CO would act on the Almayer and write a story where your CO deploys MPs, issues a BE, etc. to show the community you know when to do it. Stories are like giving examples.

Third "point".
What? In many Synth stories they include a part where they perform step by step surgery, or perform construction of an APC, etc.
You display how your Synth interacts in stories to show that you know how a Synth would act in game. It's not 500 pages, either. Exaggeration only works when the point you're comparing is actually absurd, but in most cases, stories are 3 pages at most.

[Grubstank]

For predators I always advocated a secret society type instead of an application.
Don�t call us we�ll call you

But I was told

iTs ToO mUcH FaVoRiTiSm

That would be a disgusting amount of favoritism. In my 14+ years in gaming communities (most of it hrp) I've never seen a hand picked whitelist system fail to turn to shit.

[Bancrose]

For predators I always advocated a secret society type instead of an application.
Don�t call us we�ll call you

But I was told

iTs ToO mUcH FaVoRiTiSm

[ThesoldierLLJK]

A secret society system would foster the ideals of favouritism, even if the concept endeavoured to avoid that, I believe people would nonetheless associate Predators with favouritism.

I used to admin a Arma Life community, and we had four factions
1. Normal Civilian
2. Police which was whitelisted
3. Medics which was whitelisted
4. OPFOR Whitelisted Rebels

The OPFOR side was not just you apply to get in, you had to interact with members in game to get noticed. Then depending on if you were good at combat and roleplay, you were invited to join.

It didn't really be this whole OMG favoritism thing and only peoples best buddies got the whitelist, in fact some of our prominent roleplayers on the server were told no thanks cause they couldn't shoot for shit.

[Steelpoint]

I used to admin a Arma Life community, and we had four factions
1. Normal Civilian
2. Police which was whitelisted
3. Medics which was whitelisted
4. OPFOR Whitelisted Rebels

The OPFOR side was not just you apply to get in, you had to interact with members in game to get noticed. Then depending on if you were good at combat and roleplay, you were invited to join.

It didn't really be this whole OMG favoritism thing and only peoples best buddies got the whitelist, in fact some of our prominent roleplayers on the server were told no thanks cause they couldn't shoot for shit.

I think comparing ARMA with SS13 CM is akin to Apples to Pineapples.

ARMA upholds a different standard of gameplay than we can, this is a simply the fact its a milsim, emphasis on the sim part.

Not to mention, your statement of the game is far removed from our game.

Your system might make sense if the developers were to introduce a uncommon OPFOR faction that spawns on the planet and are expected to hold themselves to a higher standard in terms of roleplay and combat competence.

But otherwise, with the community standards of SS13 servers, I don't trust any SS13 community to avoid devolving to favouritism, we have plenty of examples of player cults and people who give priority to certain players.