Then you ahelp for stacking charges and improper procedure.Originally Posted by DavidChan
Then you ahelp for stacking charges and improper procedure.
First thing: All you need to do as MP to respond to such Bwoink is to say they were "trying" to escape by nearly moving off-screen. You can't be proven wrong.
Second thing: I edit my posts to add something, or for some spelling errors. It usually takes me more than 5 minutes to glance over the thread, read your own post and then edit any errors. Ask admemes for unedited version of my post.
Refusing to deploy is not "lemme LRP" if it has valid reason. Halloween decorations present on ship and pumpkins outfitted with cams while budget is cut for AA repair it a valid reason from the start of the round for example. You just treat CM as you would CoD and any attempt to RP that isn't just talking and "me *inhales and *exhales" as LRP. MP's aren't here to govern OOC rules, they are here to govern IC rules so that marines can break them. Just for that purpose you are technically allowed to do any crime (outside murder) as PFC, even "Sexual Assault" if it is something minor like only grabbing boulge. Whole Marine Law is just to improve IC RP, OOC rules are to keep things fun and fair for everyone.
If you really need examples of kind of MP's I'm talking about, ask any old marine about MP called "Rex Texas". Grade A cancer, but nearly uncatchable, with perfect ability to stretch any law and rule. Is this really what you want back?
In short: You want to tell people how they should play the game and that it's the only way. I want MP's reworked to get rid of soft MP grieffers and illogical law.
3 Step Solution will not work. It's too complicated and holds too much potential for being rule lawyered by marines.
I get wanting to avoid abuse by MPs, but you forget marines can abuse ML too to be shitters.
Fact is. There is a 3 Step Solution mentioned that holds high potential for easy abuse.
Essentially, due to the way its worded, you can't punish a marine with stacking until after they've been Verbally and Formally Warned (Easy enough) and been arrested twice for 5 minutes in the first arrest and 10 the second (That's a wee-bit harder.)
Essentially, due to the wording. A marine could curse out a superior that isn't an officer literal hundreds of times or even THOUSANDS of times (there is no limit) and until he is Verbally Warned (Easy) and arrested two separate times (hard) for 5 and 10 minutes respectively, he won't face the danger of stacking times...
That might sound complicated so to simplify that further:
3 Step Solution = A insanely insubordinate marine could get away with hundreds of cases of insubordinate until his/her 3rd Arrest
VISPAIN’S INSUBORDINATION SUGGESTION
SOP: Insubordination:
Insubordination
Failing to follow a lawful order from a superior. Using offensive names or being directly disrespectful to someone of a higher rank or position. Each offense stacks (Five Minutes)
Punishment:
Minimum: First Offense; Warning
Maximum: 10 Minutes
Time can be stacked but only in implements of Five Minutes.
--------------------------------------------------------------
The first offense should be a mandatory verbal warning.
For those people who don’t actually play MP, here is what that means. That means that an MP tells a marine something along the lines of, “Oi, you’re getting a formal warning for ….” As there is no direct way to note a Formal, visible MP warning on the HUD (looking at you Devs), you then write it in their criminal notes via computer or examining and clicking their criminal notes(which you can’t see unless you know who the person is, EXAMINE the person and then click to see Notes… yeah) or in a more… rough fashion… mark them as Released or something which I know some MPs (including myself) have done in the past.
To make this SIMPLE and unable to be RULELAWYERED by either MPs (as I think it's a fair statement here to say there seems to be a lot of concern about MP abuse here in these suggestions...
Each subsequent offense after the first Formal, Mandatory Warning (Second Offense and Onwards), gets five to ten minutes depending on severity of crime.
Stacking Insubordination is allowed. However, stacking it can only been done so in incriminates of Five Minutes.
This is by far, the best solution that’s fair I can think of. The FIRST OFFENSE MANDATORY FORMAL WARNING I’ve always been a fan of. It’s pretty fair for insubordination in my experience with you are dealing with (both player-wise and attitude), and really can’t be abused.
The FIVE MINIMUM TO TEN MAXIMUM MINUTES time is very lenient. The issue was that some people would stack 6 Insubordinations on top each other to rule lawyer into permas. Now, from what I’ve seen recently in the last few months or so since the last major ML Changes… that’s not an issue anymore. BUT, it does happen.
For that reason, I added that FIVE MINUTEs ONLY INCREMENTS should be the stacking times.
Main issue I had with the other suggestion for Insubordination? It’s wording and design is very flawed. As mentioned in my comment, the design of 3 Steps adds a superfluous 3rd Step to something that really only needs 2 Steps. By adding that third step (on top of the other rules that prevents stacked crimes until basically the third arrest) we get a situation where a marine could insult someone of higher rank literal hundreds of times and only face a maximum of 1 Formal Warning and 15 Minutes before the danger of facing stacked times occurs.
Additionally. I didn’t see fit to suggest a change to the Superior Officer clause.
Final Thoughts:
The thing with Marine Law and Insubordination in particular in my experience is that you shouldn’t overcomplicate it sometimes. Some Marine Laws can get pretty… situational. But insubordination is for the most part a very cut and dry case of ML.
I feel my suggestion prevents perceived current abuse of what Insub is right now (I haven’t really seen any cases of Insub being abused recently in any way that requires drastic changes but I digress). At the same time, it strives to avoid leaving dangerous, annoying loopholes like in the “Three Strike Rule” that will certainly manage to become an issue as people find every and every more creative ways to rule lawyer - both as MPs and as Marines.
Last edited by Vispainius; 11-12-2019 at 09:10 AM.
ALSO.
Another mention in the suggestions was to essentially make searching civilians illegal. As I write this, there is an Anti-Civilian Survivor Antag rule in place, but that's only temporary. So, making a rule that disallows *any* searching of the Civilians let alone confiscation of equipment simply based on the premise of "muh private property" dumb.
Spoiler:
Another concern I have is on changes by adding Entrapment and other variants of changes to Insubordination. The main issues with this, as I'll try and go into, is this groupings of suggestions like many others REEKS of naivety and misunderstanding of ML in APPLIED GAMEPLAY FORM. It feels like it assumes too much about "Best Intentions" from marines and "Worst Intentions" from MPs.
Here's a example relating to Proposed Insubordination Rules regarding Officers:
"Disrespecting a Superior Officer is to ONLY be applied against personnel disparaging the CO or aCO, and is to be applied at the discretion of the CO or aCO who may downgrade the charge to Insubordination if they so choose..."
Another issue with the proposals is this:
"Example #1: A MP berates and verbally harasses a PFC without provocation or due cause of any kind inciting the Pfc to insult them back, resulting in the MP arresting the Pfc. Since the MP had no lawful cause to provoke the Pfc, they are guilty of entrapment.
Example #2: A SO verbally berates or insults an SL in an unprofessional manner for failing to follow orders during a high-stress combat scenario and the SL insults them back. The SO then proceeds to order the SLs arrest. Since the SO provoked the SL into reacting negatively and called for their arrest, the SO is guilty of entrapment."
Above all.
The insubordination proposals seem the most naive, rule-lawyer possible, and likely to flop. The reason lies a lot in GAMEPLAY IN PRACTICE. Reality is guys, the whole idea of Revamping ML to unfuck and remove shittery has been done several times. Usually, it's to prevent MP Abuses or clarify stuff. This time, these proposals come off as highly likely to create an alternate issue: Marines abusing ML... or rather... the lack of it.
K.I.S.S
Keep It Simple Stupid.
It's a good philosophy but one clearly not being followed in what I've seen. Know your demographics. Both the marine, officers, and MPs and the general types of people in both those groups and how they interact. I can't say I'm psychic or know what's gonna happen if you add in these rules, but I can say that the loopholes are pretty fucked. IT definitely comes across for the Insubordination, and even the Entrapment clauses, as occasionally forgetting that more people than just MPs can abuse Marine Law and that in trying to fix non-existent issues which are dogwhistled and memed about, ya'll are about to create a new one.
A lot of stuff in ML comes to COMMON SENSE.
Don't get yourself caught up in IDEALISM and NAIVETY trying to hug box and safe-space people with a game based around a military unit that fights monsters right out of a horror story (Literally) played by borderline-autistic people only held back by OOC rules and barely by IC laws.
Last edited by Vispainius; 11-13-2019 at 05:06 PM.
IDK it’s not hard to avoid the brig. It’s easy to take your sentence from 15 mins to perma if you are a dumbass though. Marine Law is pretty good and the MP arrest/timer procedures do a good job of keeping everything above board.
Now if you get arrested for disrespecting the CO, then tell the CMP to fuck off twice and ahelp an admin that you didn’t do anything except tell the CMP to fuck off once but now have a 45 min sentence, yeah people will think the law or MPs are the problem and not the player.
Admins take these players at their word too readily in my experience.
Well in my experience, you are a big part of the reason why people dislike MPs. With such lovely quirks as walking up to a marine beating him down, and then telling him to put on armor.
that’s so 2018
One time the CL told MPs to arrest me and they did it without question, fuck them
Never seen that happen in all my games of playing MP and just watching them for fuckups.
On top of that, that's not MPing.
By ML, there is nothing that allows walking up randomly to a dude and just beating him and telling him to put on armor as you describe it.
As another player said.
It's really not hard to avoid the brig. Even when you are guilty sometimes.
Current ML is in a good place imo but ofc there is dog whistling over nothing. A change, especially like this, is gonna do nothing but create a bigger issue and less-understood and less-sensible ML all while under the ironic idea that it'll clarify shit. I suppose will clarify in the most basic of definitions. But the clarification will be more akin to taking 2+2=4 and saying that it's now 2+2=5.
Last edited by Vispainius; 11-14-2019 at 01:20 PM.
Yes I know that it's against marine law, he still did it though.
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