Rule 3. Racism in CM. Should it be allowed?

[Build_R_]

Christ, three quotes, alright I'm game.

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I understand that even if I don't like something in the rules, I'd have to suck it up like anyone else, rules are rules. I agree with the separation between morals and rules anyways, for the most part.

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I think a situation involving someone actually screaming "REEEE" is not a perfect situation in the first place, the issue is that not only is it a bad situation, it's an imaginary one which gives it less credit than it already had. Also the extremes of a spectrum are rarely your only option, you don't need to have either a fluffy space with no clashing between characters or a barbaric hellhole full of racism, you can always have some forms of it be okay

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-Let's not define racism and instead use the actual definition(s)

"prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

"the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."

therefore by these previously established definitions we see that yes, what you've said before is racist, however does it break the rules is up to the decision on the racism rule and just how much leniency is applied.

-Let's not slide down a slippery slope here where somehow disallowing racism will ruin the server, gender pronouns are not mentioned in any rules, delta is not a race and is not mentioned in any rules, PFCs are not a race and are not mentioned as one in any of the rules. These aren't very practical arguments, they're stereotypes taken to the extreme rather than discussing reasonably what should be done with the racism rule, clearly people are not going to be banned for the reasons you've given as I doubt the rules are going to be set that way, just like I doubt they're going to fully allow people being outright assholes 100% of the time.

-Free speech means nothing here, free speech is a rule applied to the government so you don't get punished when you upset them, private games and hubs can set whatever rules they want, as shown by how many people have been banned for exercising their right to say OOC in IC.

-Your youtube video cited as evidence has changed me, as I'm sure it changed all other 582 people who watched it, it's incredible to see such other brilliance come from the mind of this man in the forms of videos such as "gay kid" or "my mailman tried breaking into my house" or even "fortnite the montage". Jokes aside I really don't see how a video where the guy talks about his opinion without any opposing opinions is supposed to be treated as hard proof for free use of the n word.

[ThesoldierLLJK]

I just want to point out that what build_R is how you have a constructive conversation.
Instead of referring to people as dumb racists.

Be more like build_R

[CABAL]

-snip-

- "Towelhead" by Urban Dictionary:
Top definition "A derogatory term for one of Middle Eastern descent, especially a male. It comes from their custom of wearing a turban."
Second Top definition: "A offensive word used to describe a custom of someone of arab descent"
In wiki by term "Arab" "...Today, "Arab" refers to a large number of people whose native regions form the Arab world due to the spread of Arabs and the Arabic language throughout the region during the early Muslim conquests of the 7th and 8th centuries and the subsequent Arabisation of indigenous populations."
Nothing about race here. Arabs are not a race, they are an ethnic group. Can't be racist if it isn't a race.

- And I'm not saying that banning all and all racism will ruin the server, but hypocristy will. Every racial insult is banned, or none of them are. If you say that we should ban "N-Word", then we should ban them all. No matter if you are a black person yourself, if "N-Word" is banned then you can't say that no matter what. If you can, then it's hypocrisy.
Banning few words, but not the others will ruin the server. I can handle the game without minor racism, it's not that hard, but don't come and say that I can't say the "N-word", but you won't bat an eye on other racial slur. Make rules clear, either everything IC is allowed IC, or nothing is allowed IC and everything becomes OOC.

- Free speech is a rule I apply to my own life, I don't need govts to say what is right and what is wrong. I know it.

- That YT video is only a part cut from the original and it clearly shows one "relationship" between racial slurs. Either all of them are OK, or none of them is OK. Why you treat "N-Word" with so much "respect/power/something"? Why it is fairly OK to say "Faggot", why it is fairly OK to say "Zipperhead"?
Why there isn't a "culture" of saying "Zipperhead"? Both words, "N-Word" and "Zipperhead" have history, both are applied to a race of people, but for some reason I have to literally write "N-Word", but I can use "Zipperhead" as much as I want? Becouse there are no people that say it is very, very bad to say "Z-Word". And becouse of that nobody uses that word, becouse it has no power, no meaning, just an insult.
This video shows a clear fact, that by just having one racial insult in such a high regard, you are only giving it power you don't want it to have.
Morgan Freeman once said, after being asked how to end racism: " - Stop talking about it".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2RwJlQdzpE

People who so desperately try to end racism just end up cultivating it.
A guy was called an "Towelhead", such a big deal. A guy was called an "N-Word", such a big deal. Untill something really concerning happens, it shouldn't be discussed. Untill somebody starts to preaching about killing Jews, or deploying Asians via Normandy, it's nothing that should hurt anyone who uses internet.
Fighting with something as petty as just an ordinary racial slur without anything going further is just pretty silly. Screeching like a Queen about "N-Word" only encourages real racist and trolls to say this word just to say how screechers will react to it. Context matters, using insult as an insult is just an insult, we are free to swear.

[Cimo]

And if you break someone's skull in real life, even if you dislike his racism, you still get in trouble...?

I was referring to your usual marine brawl, not serial killing ppl, nowadays they punish heavily for any ship-side shenanigans.


also like Cabal said, the problem is selective enforcing of the rules, either ban all racist remarks like the N word, or allow all of them.

[Build_R_]

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-I see Towelhead isn't a slur against race and is instead a slur against an ethnic group, perhaps the rule should refer to discrimination in general rather than racism? For some people, being called towelhead is acceptable, for others it's not. I personally find it to be a bit excessive.

-Your free speech. That's an interesting philosophy to live by but unfortunately you live under a government and while they don't declare what's right and wrong they do declare what's allowed and what's disallowed under their jurisdiction, similar to how playing in CM-SS13 allows the admins to declare what is allowed and disallowed in their game.

-I treat the n-word with a bit more respect/caution because it has a more recognised and arguably larger history behind it than faggot, that and to say the f-word instead of faggot would be confusing. The reason that there's a 'relationship' between people and certain slurs is because there is a certain difference of hatred with each slur. Like how calling someone an idiot is less hateful than calling them an dipshit. I don't think that all slurs are equally hateful despite the fact that they all convey a certain amount of hate, this is why I don't think that it's an 'all or nothing' sort of situation. I don't understand how it's wrong to hold the n-word in high regard in this setting though, it is a discussion about racism after all and that word tends to come to mind. Not to mention racism does unfortunately exist and will still exist whether I ignore it or not. I think Morgan Freeman was correct in his statement but it is too idealistic, yes racism would end if everyone stopped talking about it, not just the people concerned but the people actively promoting it.

-Context does matter which is why the rule is not automatically enforced by bots and rather by moderators, the simplest way to find out whether the context was acceptable or not depends on whether or not it was reported and warrants action after an investigation. Sure somebody could expect to receive racism at any second when playing CM but currently they don't have to, this is because people are expected to be decent human beings as per the 'don't be a dick' rule.

I understand that fighting against racism everywhere in the world in the form of an online forum debate is an awful idea and that's not what I'm trying to do. What I am trying to say is that the rule on racism does not have to be full-on handing out bans but it doesn't have to be a 12 year old Xbox player's dream either. A healthy moderation of racism to an adequate degree is possible and I think it's a better solution than abolishing the rule on racism altogether.

[CABAL]

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Yeah, "healthy moderation of racism". Such thing was/is already on the server. Keeping what we already have has its benefits. I never saw anyone outright saying racist statements just for the sake on being racist on the server. It's easy to recognise when someone goes overboard and I guess staff handled it well.
Even famous "PaperU" and bayonet charges are rather silly/annoying, than racist.
Rewording of the rule is required in my opinion. Allow very minor racism (all racial slurs, but nothing else) and it's good.

[Banned User ID63]

I would also like to point out a flaw in the argument many seem to give:

"This would encourage people to be edgy and racist" etc

I would like to remind you minor racism has always been allowed, again, for four years now. If we've not have a problem with it 'encouraging' it in the past, would anyone mind explaining how it would now ?

[Build_R_]

-snip-

Well that is what I was hoping for, a rewording rather than simply removing that part of the rule altogether. I might've misunderstood but weren't you advocating for an all or nothing kind of deal where we either allow all racism or none at all?

[ThesoldierLLJK]

I think the best answer to this question is rewrite the rule from this

Rule 3. Don�t be a dick - Harassment, racism, bigotry, homophobia, exploiting bugs, cheating, hacking, and just plain being an asshole. Giving out plot spoilers to any media with malicious intent is not allowed, but the general discussion of plot that contains spoilers about media released 1 year ago or longer is fine.

to

Rule 3. Don�t be a dick - Out of Character harassment, racism, bigotry, homophobia. Exploiting bugs, cheating, hacking, and just plain being an asshole. Giving out plot spoilers to any media with malicious intent is not allowed, but the general discussion of plot that contains spoilers about media released 1 year ago or longer is fine. In-character insults, minor racism is fine, but if you feel it has crossed the line, please send an adminhelp for staff.

[CABAL]

Well that is what I was hoping for, a rewording rather than simply removing that part of the rule altogether. I might've misunderstood but weren't you advocating for an all or nothing kind of deal where we either allow all racism or none at all?

Those two "extreme" options are the only thing that would "shut everyones mouth". Either all is banned, then you have non-racist server and nobody can argue with it, or you allow everything and nobody will argue about it.
Keeping what we have now raised the question of "Should it be allowed", that means somebody thought there is way to much already.
Keeping what we have now will raise more questions, more concerns.
To satisfy many and myself, pick one of them. To keep doing what you were, keep doing what you were.
I doubt that things will be as they were, this is why were advocating "all in, or all out" method.
Also I don't like the idea of "N-word" standing in that high regard while others are not. Every conversation about racism has to be "touch" the "N-word".