Rule 3. Racism in CM. Should it be allowed?

[Mann handle]

No I made a pretty solid argument, actually. But, y'know, this is a safe space and people don't like having their feelings hurt when they get called out for being racist. Better to just delete posts to ensure the right people get the last word in, otherwise we might have to actually do our jobs we volunteered for. Ooo, scary.

The argument you provided is based on assumption with no evidence to back it up. It's an argument made in extremely bad faith as it causes further derailment, worse faith when all of a sudden you pull the safe space argument out.

But let's turn the assumption part into a positive for a positive on topic point. From reading this thread I've seen multiple assumptions that are baseless or a woefully incorrect, dangerous and broad strokes as well. One of those is that the only people who are doing this and defending this are white, I can only point to the report that started this all off and just say that from reading that I know a couple of the people there are not white and have come up in the report and this thread to voice their opinion. If anything it sounds like the people throwing around the accusation that these people are white are simply deluding themselves and seeing only what they want to see.

The second one is that people who play these characters are fulfilling some sort of power fantasy. Last I checked I've not seen people dress up as Black supremacists and shoot up a briefing of white people nor have I seen Indians bomb Pakistanis in their prep room. In fact everyone plays their character role when it truly matters and the RP factor is left at that, RP. This assumption simply assumes that people will express themselves in a way that is intentionally detrimental to game play if they have freedom to do so. Let's expand on that further, you create a character, you experience a game in the role of the guy you just created and get insulted. Who is insulted, you or the character? To find that out one has to observe the interactions through the whole game. If the interactions late in game are with a white medic healing a chinese marine yet during prep they were arguing, one can say it was in character and good taste between the two of them. If they die and the players are arguing you can say there was genuine discontent between the players. But in that example I have not mentioned what they are arguing about or what was the insult was and who insulted who. You take things in principals and you can find a very easy way to deem what is going on.

Third assumption is that everyone is involved and has to be OK with something otherwise no one can do it. The reality at the end of the day is that if you personally are not involved with two marines having a go at each other then you're not really involved with the RP at hand nor are you personally being insulted. One could argue stereotypes, but generally ANYONE can perform them or fall into a category. If one was to get involved however you could personally RP a solution out as you wish. A Black guy can play as an Italian commander while a white guy can play as your stereotypical pavement ape, the two will interact if they wish and something will happen. If a problem occurs the rules cover this with a simple Ahelp and the one who is RPing as the offending party will be told to calm down but if you're the third party why should someone accept your report if the other two players actually don't mind. At that point you would be getting offended on another person's behalf. That sort of behavior is something people call virtue signaling which comes across as an attention grab for the sake of feel good points, needless to say it's not very popular to the wider community regardless if it's CM or another community.

The fourth assumption is that people take their personal real life grievances and views into a game. If you believe that's everyone and people are playing with their personal opinions on their sleeve, then you're delusional. People play games normally to escape reality, not further it in a fantasy. For those that do this they end up getting punished quickly and normally for a plethora of reasons as well like shooting up cargo or other such things.

The fifth one is that if this ends with no rule changes, it means the server is encouraging it. It's not.

Just go Goon station route and make any forms of Racism against the rules. The only thing it does is creates more problems and double standards as it exists. Making it an IC issue would only Promote it and make it even worse than it already is. Just remove it. Don't dick around with the idea, just get rid of it and call it day.

I'd point out that, that's an incredibly lazy way to solve any issue and actually solves little to nothing at all. Worst part as well is your example of goon, how many people play Goon nowadays? It used to be rather high flying but now Goon is seen as something people don't bother with. Some cite rules, other cite the community and admins etc. The knock on effect could lead to chilling effects and sterilization of the server and some of the current character roster would be hit hard all for the sake of people not being able to distinguish reality from fiction. Also promote? I don't think a single thing would actually change much if the rules didn't change, you'd maybe see a small victory dance by those who see this as a good thing and pushing the envelop a little but even that is me making assumptions much like yourself is with that statement.

[Vispainius]

I'm just going to say this really goddamn simple.

IC racism is fine as long as it isn't over the top.
OOC racism isn't fine.


You can hate it, but face the facts.

Racism IC is ALREADY allowed and it hasn't created any major issues OOCly or ICly.
Making it a purely OOC issue is not only lazy, but not representative of the real world let alone any environment, game or real.
Currently, the solution to racism in game is simple. If it's over the top (ex: somebody saying slurs and racist things all the time on repeat with no reason), moderators deal with it.... If it's just in the context on the game, it's fine.

Get over yourself if you are a third party and uncomfortable with IC racism. You can walk away.

If you are a involved party, just LOOC "please don't say that to me" before going batshit insane in PC dogma.

Finally, For God's sake guys. We've had this rule forever, there's been little to no issue. The only reason it's an issue now is a LITERAL THIRD PARTY took issue with IC racism... made by parties who were completely ok with it in OOC. And before we have some idiots spouting the party line about white supremacy and racism... all the INVOLVED parties were OK with the situation OOCly AND only 1 is actually white. CM SS13 is a ROLEPLAYING game with Medium Levels of RP. Deal with It. Minor, In Character Levels of Racism is apart of that.

Here's what happened to a community that gave in to some of the BS like what I'm seeing spouted here. Don't be fooled into sacrificing realism and freedom of speech for the sake of sensitivity... in a game and community that has absolutely none.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-UBfkUVGk4 - LCBSCP by Mister Metokur


If anything, only one change is needed. That's make racism a official IC Marine Law crime by adding it to Failing to Follow SOP or Disorderly Conduct

[NescauComToddy]

IC Racism should continue to be allowed, including characters with diverse characterizations from different ethnicities. These can become annoying at times, but they differentiate the rounds in a certain way if they act 'right'. I believe that Marine Law should be held responsible and punish infringements related to racism, but I can see how this could be easily abused by MPs. As long as there is common sense, maybe it would work.

I believe that it should continue to exist. If you feel offended, ask a moderator to ask the offenders to knock it off.

[Fitchace]

The previous guard with Feweh and Apop wouldn't have given two shits about the "Nantucket pretending he's a samurai space marine" because they would've found it funny, the same exact way Bancrose was favored by Feweh when the guy used to play a commander ripped straight out of Nazi Germany. There was an incident where Fitchace/Bill Carson said something along the lines of "Them niggers secretly adore slavery" and then dabbed, and when people started ahelping Feweh laughed and said "IC racism is perfectly fine" in OOC chat. The current moderation team is actively considering tightening racism rules and has less tolerance for these gimmick characters, so try not to scream insults at the top of your lungs like a whiny child that misses his mommy when you don't even know what you're talking about.



Rule 3 isn't a rule that needs changing in any way, as we've had this rule for years now with no problem whatsoever. Most of the problems cited in this thread have less to do with the rules themselves but rather the way they're enforced.

At most rule 3 should be reworded so that it's easier to understand. Some people assume any and all forms of racism is a rulebreak while others know it's just to stop people from verbally abusing others in game with malicious intent, hence why "no racism" is not a main rule and is merely listed as a part of the "don't be a dick" rule.

The real problem is that staff is piss poor at maintaining consistency with their enforcement of the rules- people simply saying "nigger" regardless of context will get people warned one moment while saying "niggers should be sat in the back of the dropship" the next would be deemed as an IC issue, for instance. Two people can ahelp to be respawned after observing and failing to roll event characters and two different moderators will handle the ahelps simultaneously, one saying to the first player "sucks for you bucko, you took the risk and it didn't pay off" while the other moderator wordlessly returns the second player back to lobby. From the prospective of an outsider looking inside, it's very clear to me that the mod team agrees very little on how rules should be enforced and they have conflicting ideas for important issues. It should be ironed out by head staff.

The report made on the players for a breach of rule 3 should've been closed the moment that every involved party stated that they weren't offended and that they were just having fun with each other ICly, imo.

I never ever said the n word in game or OOC EVER. Yes it was someone named Bill Carson but I swear to god that was not me. A player snapped a picture of the Bill Carson saying that and he had black eyes and black hair, a very poor Bill Carson look alike.

[Rain]

Honestly, I really don't like some of the stupid, horrible racial caricatures. But I'm also a fan of goon's no slurs policy, so I'm probably farther on the end than some others. The video Vis linked falls under the paradox of tolerating intolerance. Tolerance suffers when you expect people to put up with racist bullshit.

I just suspect it would not be a welcome change for this community to disallow racism IC. I usually only ahelp dire cases, and try to ignore the asshats when they flare up.

[grinkgo]

I think the level of hostility in this discussion is a poor reflection of the community and its ability to offer constructive solutions/responses to the issue (not saying everyone in the thread is guilty of this. Mostly just the ones who have nothing to contribute besides "get a thicker skin, libtard.").

That said, this is definitely an issue that has to be treated delicately. And I think there are certainly differing yet valid opinions on what one may personally believe is the right thing and what is best for the server. I will say that racist that is blatant, OOC, or exists just to be racist should be shutdown. In terms of IC racism, I think the best way to execute it is to treat it as an integrated part of a character's personality. A person who is actually a racist isn't just a racist because they call everyone a racial slur. It's a part of the personality. It's a fundamental part of who that person is because of their beliefs. And the racism doesn't define their entire character. A person a multi-faceted, and the racist parts of their character are but one aspect of their personality. I certainly think that basing an entire character's personality on being a racist is LRP as it serves as a one-trick pony. I would agree there that it would be in poor taste. If your character has no defining attributes besides something racist, that's just boring. It's not even good character design. And you can do better than that.

I'll use an example of a white racist character and a POC character. From a roleplay perspective, a POC who wants to roleplay with the racist (which may be completely optional, as the server is large and there are lots of non-racist PCs to interact with and talk to), has one major goal: To change the mind of the racist. Maybe the clutch save by the Chinese medic will prove the racist SL wrong and the SL thinks twice the next time he's about to call his PFC a chink.

In other cases, and perhaps the most likely one, the POC isn't able to change the racists mind, and thus there is tension. I certainly think that from an RP perspective, this sort of tension is appropriate and at times simply a necessary byproduct of the roleplay. And here's where I think many of us in the thread have differing issues on what one should do in this situation. I think that one's ability to respond to IC racism is dependent on their roleplaying ability. Certainly, if one has the robustness to react in an IC way against the racist, I think that is the best solution. Maybe it breaks out into a fist fight. Maybe the tension ignites into hatred and the marine leaves the other on the battlefield to die. Maybe the character reports it to his SL or his LT and the racist gets brigged. There are all sorts of ways to handle the issue in an IC manner. And I think that many people in this thread would agree that IC resolution is the best possible outcome.

Despite this, however, it is perfectly okay if one isn't able to RP a response. Everyone RPs at a different level and any issues that one faces because of it are not the fault of either party. If one is genuinely bothered by IC racism, then the best response is to ahelp it. From there I'm certain a mod can talk to the other party and tell them to tone it down. So maybe that character won't be talk to your character much after that. That's okay. You can't be friends with everyone on the server. At the end of the day, everything we do in this game is optional. I would hope that most any player would be willing to comply and be able to tone down their RP or switch focus if brought to their attention. If one doesn't consent to a roleplay, I don't think they should be forced to continue with it if it makes them uncomfortable. Everyone will respond in different ways, and since (hopefully) the players of this server aren't actually racist bigots, they should be willing to be flexible and adapt if they are causing an issue. At the end of the day, we're all in this community together and should ultimately behave in ways which support each other (is that naive?).

I think in most cases, a staff should try to be as inclusive as possible. If a player has genuine concerns and the staff shrug it off because of "context," I think that reflects poorly on the staff. I would also agree with what others have said about upholding a level of consistency. There has to be some standards. And don't just say it's a "case-by-case" basis. That just means you're making it up as you go, and that's not dependable nor trustworthy way to run a staff team. If there is no bottom line, I think that's somewhat of an issue. I think the people who are having issues want to know that as a valued member of the community, their concerns are valid and are actively being considered by the staff. Now this isn't to say that the staff should just take the player's side every time, but it doesn't make sense to me for the community to try to intentionally exclude someone. And that feeling of exclusion is one that I sense strongly in this thread. People responding with insults that contribute nothing to the discussion but attack the OP do nothing but feel like they aren't heard/wanted. That's fucked. If you're one of those people, fuck off.

This turned out way longer than I intended to so if there are any inconsistencies or anything that needs explaining, don't be afraid to ask me.

[Sneakyr]

I could go in to detail about my opinion, but I'll just shorten it up so that it doesn't end as a big fuckoff wall of text.
I don't particularly enjoy the racist remarks. They don't really offend me, or anything - they're just a bit on the side of tacky and have never once really added anything for me. While I believe that some people are truly using racist remarks and feelings to portray their characters, I feel that many are also simply using it as a shield to keep it in. Not because those people are necessarily racist, mind - more of a "I want to be able to say whatever I want" sort of attitude. Let's not fall into the illusion of thinking CM is a roleplay server in any capacity greater than "sometimes if the people in question can be assed".
Aside from language, the characters who are nothing more than caricatures of a race or nationality may briefly provide some entertainment, but at least for me they always eventually become annoying as any humor value is lost.
If this is the direction that the server wishes to move in due to it being the opinion of the majority, then so be it. Rules should adapt to fit the interests and tastes of the community, but I am curious as to whether or not keeping them in for the positive of those who enjoy them is worth the negative that many players experience. Would it really be that big of a sacrifice, in theory?
Anyway, here's something I feel needs pointing out while I end this: This is a thread of whether or not IC racism should be allowed via the rules. Moderator policy currently allows it despite the rule being strict about it. Those suggesting that anyone uncomfortable simply ahelp seem to me to be on shaky ground, as even with a strict prohibition on the language it is already allowed and with the rule on it being relaxed I doubt anyone complaining would receive more than some variant of the phrase "suck it up" from many staff members, especially given the large volume of staff members who support the use of such language in this very thread. If someone wishes to address this point, I would appreciate it, as perhaps my concerns are unfounded and honestly I didn't read all eight(!!!) pages of this long fucking thread.
Ultimately, the community is going to decide whether or not it wants this, as it should be. I just don't know if the potential alienation of those who dislike it is worth the likely small added pleasure of it being included.

[Sakuyoi]

(Shitpost part with criticism)
Daily Reminder that if you are being racist in game thats just IC and just for fun.

People are still different IRL than in game.

Maybe the guy that was really fucking racist towards you in game is doing Gods work contributing in society rather than complaining about social justice in muh space murheen vidya gaem.

If you dont wanna hear racist remarks then just go play xeno where everyone is equal.. Wait.. Why are there no male xenomorphs.. Why is everyone calling everyone sisters? Are xenomorphs sexists now? Ok Ban all xenos.

(not shitpost part)

If someone called you a nigger in LOOC. Take that seriously. And ahelp it. Its easy. Mods are always online.

If someone called you a nigger in IC. Then resolve it ICly or just straight up ignore them if you aren't a snowflake. If it becomes a marine law violation then call an MP. Then prepare for a mutiny.

Not everywhere is a safe space for you guys. Do not expect everywhere that people will be nice to you. If you have issues with people calling you stereotypes in a game, I suggest you stop playing.

tl;dr dont take shit seriously

[Oatzandhoes]

Racial humour and namecalling fit the setting and honestly happen all the time in the marines. Just don't go overboard with it and there really shouldn't be a problem. People need thicker skins.

[LaKiller8]

Seems like a lot of servers and communities are discussing this or something similar at the moment. And frankly, this is a complex issue and there's neccessarily no right or wrong answer to it. I'd like to thank everyone who shares there opinion here as this discussion is very valuable, as long as it is kept respectful. I would share my opinion too, but if I'm being honest, the more I read about this the more I don't know how to feel. There were a lot of good points brought up from both sides that made me question my stance on it.