Surv Death Meta Returns

[JarekTheRaptor]

That's because back then the odds were so unbelievably shitty that the only reason you would play survivor is because it was fun to survive against the odds, typically while surviving you had some bravado with your fellow survivors, you all knew you were fucked and were going to be dead in 5 minutes and there was no point pretending it was any other way so nobody tried to be a hero and everyone just accepted it.

Then survivor became actually playable outside of just hiding in a locker and accepting your fate wasn't on the table any more because you actually had the means to fight back and didn't just have to hide in a corner and pray you were in an obscure enough position to not be found too early. I'm guessing from there it became more attractive as a combat role and less and less as an RP role.

I remember walling yourself in the LZ1 Solaris cave that used to connect the marshals perma-brig to LZ1, and just holding out there until boilers came to melt the walls and kick your ass. LV for the secure dome, everyone taking turns welding the walls down and repairing them back up so the eye damage wouldn't be too severe because getting welding goggles was off the table. Stuff like that never happens any more.

[Sakuyoi]

.

it never happens now because you get warriors and lurkers in your ass slashing walls like paper maches.
Much worse are the sweaty ones who rush you in larva form and evolve in the frontlines.
Its just a battle of time instead of taking things slower.

[FoxyShibata]

I remember walling yourself in the LZ1 Solaris cave that used to connect the marshals perma-brig to LZ1, and just holding out there until boilers came to melt the walls and kick your ass. LV for the secure dome, everyone taking turns welding the walls down and repairing them back up so the eye damage wouldn't be too severe because getting welding goggles was off the table. Stuff like that never happens any more.

You can't hold out anywhere because Spitters and Boilers can fire over cades, and fucking Defenders can tear down walls entirely. Any wall at all used to be at least a minute of waiting for them to Acid it, and if you managed to get R-walls it was buying time for a boiler to show up, now, any t2 can slash a hole through a normal wall in seconds, and any t3 can tear down an R-Wall in the same amount of time.

The 'defensive' strategies only work in two situations, either
A: You are defending at a spot that's very close to the LZ. You do not expect to hold out till marines arrive, you expect to hold out long enough so that when you die, you'll be revived.
or
B: You are in Florina, and have 4 Sentry guns.

going 'Offensive' is the best strategy survivors have, staying mobile prevents a runner from seeing you, running offscreen, and going ';Survs in Marshalls' for the T3s to lumber to your position.
If you get the attention of the hive, and, 9/10 times, you will, you arn't making it. There's A not-irrelevant number of *Queens* who will show up to fuck survivor bases and gib one before marines arrive.

The point being, if the hive decides they want to destroy your fort, they will, and there's very little you can do to stop them. So you don't build a fort. You roam. People think it's Rambos going around trying to find kills, but it's not, it's the best way to not *get* killed.

[BellyMaster]

in the coming days I am going to put more armour on maps

Could you remove bell before you worry about survivors. Breaking the game(and half of the players eardrums) is not good...not good at all.

[BellyMaster]

Surely one good thing that comes out of it is another great proof why xenos being stronger (70-30 winrate) won't add anything to RP. When your enemy is stronger, you don't RP, you meta as much as you can to survive and maybe thrive, or you die and get salted on (rigthfully).

That goes both ways truthfully, you make xenos have paper carapace, they are going to use every tool they have to avoid dying, which leads to woyer tide and whatnot. Remove IFF stuns and marine deathbeams(m2c) and then maybe we can talk. Benos should actually have some way to win 1v1 against any human. Right now, most humans, if they have a shotty, have incredibly high odds of beating all but the most robust t1s, and probably half of the t2 players. Outside of big scary names, most xenos can barely use the tools they have, as they make one mistake and get PBd=Dchat. For instance-Lurker pounce selfstuns, if you cant get your cursor on to the 3 pixels of the human underneath you, you will either get shot by some random or they will stand up and shoot you themselves, warrior, if they move (one) tile away from you, your lunge will miss, and they can buckshot stun you then execute you with the buckslow afterwards, spitter just blows, barely does any damage unless you land a full combo, and will get melted if it gets hit by more than a hummingbird. Drone t2s are actually somewhat decent, not because of combat power, but utility. T1s, runner is made of literal air, blow on them and they fall to pieces, sentinel is a meme that is only useful in incredibly low number skirimishes, which never happen unless xenos are already winning, defender is a slow piece of shit with a giant hitbox that will die in a handful of PBs or ap rifle shots, and drone is a drone, so pretty decent. Meanwhile, marines have IFF stuns, which can permastun t1-t2 until they run out of ammo, they have IFF firesupport for PFCS with M56 mounted gun, have IFF rifles with L42 or whatever that has a shitload of ap ammo just lying around, they can drop mortar and cas damn near everywhere, and can OB pretty much everywhere but LV caves...Considering these tools that each side has, I am not going to really accept the meme that beno OP. They heal slower than humans, they dont have instant heals, they dont have revives, capping is a goddamn joke without queen screech, queen is a loud, slow piece of shit that is about as stealthy as a jet engine, and you know what, the queen dies in less than 1(one) (the first whole number above zero) mag of ap m41 BC to kill her...a single mag...less infact, like 25 shots inside fall off hit, queen=crit. So I dont really think marines have room to talk about how xenos being strong would negatively impact the game, as xenos arent strong.

[CABAL]

snip

But benos are supposed to powergame and nobody should have problem with that as their "Roleplaying" is being the most efficient death-machine. My post that You quoted isn't talking about individual benos being strong, or weak, but the general development idea of forced unfair winrate by adressing the only argument for something like that, which many people make and this is that somehow being weak promotes roleplay, which is untrue as survivor example shows.

And most combat xeno castes have a bigger chance to win in 1vs1 scenario if players on both sides have roughly equal skill. Drone and drone evolutions (besides queen) aren't combat castes, thus they don't need to have that inherit chance, as they are purerly support and not frontline fighters.
Defender, Runner and Spitter are perfectly capable of 1vs1 any PFC. Depending on the PFC loadout, its either heavily in favour of a xeno, or a game of who clicks who faster. Buckshot shotgun gives single marine about equal footing with Runner, Defender and Sentinel. If runner pounces said buckshot marine and slashes his foot, then that marine already lost. If marine PB's runner first, marine already won, however runner can attempt to escape and it's a good chance he will.
If Defender menages to tailwhip first and then headbutt marine away from his shotgun first... And so on, and so on.

If beno players suck and some robust marine doesn't, is that a marine fault, or beno fault? I think its beno fault.

You don't have to perfectly click on a marine sprite if you pounced him. Xeno Aim assist exists, hell, you can even click marine sprite trough your own sprite without it (not 100% sure about that, I remember that something like that was added). At worst you just need to click a tile that a pounced marine is, which so happens to be the same tile your lurker is on. But yes, if you pounce a marine with buckshot shotgun and you somehow suck so much you won't slash him during his pounce stun (and you won't escape yourself, because pounce stun on marine is longer than on lurker himself) then he PBs you and you have a slim chance to escape. Otherwise that marine has broken atleast 2 bones and dies in 10 seconds after standing up anyway.

If any other marine shoots you, you can tank the damage and escape, unless you (as a big brain xeno player) decided to pounce marine next to other marine who also wields shotgun.

Lunge doesn't miss if marine walks one tile, unless they are on the edge of lunge range. If said marine is two tiles away from the lunge range and warrior uses his ability on marine sprite, there is nothing that can stop it, nothing that marine can do (unless a very very very very very very very unlucky/lucky scenario where lunged marine shoots buckshot/slug right as you lunge, but that has to be timed so perfectly, it only happened to me once on a pouncing lurker) about it.

Defender doesn't have a "big hitbox". Nothing but vehicles have a hitbox bigger than one tile, even queen. Their sprite is bigger, which makes it a bit easier to PB, nothing else.
What IFF stuns besides B8 revolver heavy bullets do marines have?

Sure, marines have other IFFs, but only Smartgun/Sniper Rifle and CO's rifle are worth using. B8 on anything makes it super shit. Yes, they can mortar, CAS and OB a lot of places. Lets not talk about the fact that they are clearly indicate that they are about to land with big margin of time to GTFO (if they don't its a bug).
Xenos, on the other hand, can't harm themselfs outside of occasional bodyblocking, which requires marines to actually shoot at them, unlike FF that deals damage without beno intervention.

Also, I'm not saying benos are OP. I'm saying that making them OP won't add RP.

Yes, marines have room to talk how xenos being strong WOULD/WERE (not ARE, we are talking here about either hypothetical future scenario, or what exactly happened in CM past) negatively impact the game in RP (and general gameplay fun for both sides).

[BellyMaster]

Snip

Buckshot stuns at range, first off, second off, a shotgun can put a runner in to crit with oneclick, allowing them to be shanked/followuped for free with zero counterplay. All leap/lunge castes can be parried by a well timed slug/heavy revolver/buckshot, combined with the fact that a leap will always follow a set path, means that in a marine/xeno match up, the skill ceiling and gameplay mechanics will always favor the ranged stun over the gap closer, until your get to rav/prae who dont give a fuck about bullet stuns. So yes, you are correct in the broad assessment, but that inherently ignores the fact that the top 10% of marines become untouchable once they have MD + a stunning weapon. Unless leaping from darkness, which is hard, and even when you leap, any and every cast will miss if the marine moves (one) tile. Warrior is the only one that requires the marine move away, the others, aslong as they dont move towards the leaping beano, will dodge it. Enough on that, though, the point is that, for a baldo/slightly competent beno, they will lose pretty much every duel with a robusto, while a robusto beno is not really robust because they can force a winning fight, they are robust because they know when they cant win, and ignore shitty situations.

(also, marines start with like 48 magharns in thier vendors between the four squads, SG has innate magharn, so 52 magharns total, meaning that almost any marine that uses a shotgun and point mans will be magharned, meaning you will rarely get the opportunity to knock the weapon away.)

Beno aim assist, yeah it kinda exists, but marines can still walk away, combine that with the fact that alot of the t1 castes require, with just slashes, like 15 to kill a marine without RNG decaps, FF, etc, I would not say that getting slashed once is a big deal, maybe with lurker, where its actually two, and they are fat ass 35 damage meatshots, but unless you deploy without shoes or gloves, you should not be delimbed, and you should be able to get splints pretty handily, hell, you can even deploy with splints. Aswell, all marines have access to emergency med injectors, which can allow them to heal pretty decently with no brainpower, just inject, fight, kill.

Yes, if a marine, with a stock M41 shoots you, you can tank it and ignore it...for a second...if its a revo with heavy, and more than...one marine, or if its just one marine thats robust, you are going to get chain stunned, slowed, revo gets put up and PBd as you come out of stun with a giant slowdown on you.

(Parry stunning doesnt exist) Yes, if woyer lunge is at short range, you are almost certainly going to get caught, but that should, reasonably, only happen when you are A) Pushing doors B) Hijack. If you are pushing doors without a friend to help you, that is brain issue, get a buddy, even one PFC with a M41 can pressure a woyer in to flinging you away, unless its a freak of nature prime warrior, or the xeno has backup to run you off. Marines start with a huge number advantage, meaning you should NEVER push solo. Buddy system in game works really well.

Sprite size is important alot of the time, allows for easier clicking, try and click a defender sprite thats moving around vs a runner sprite thats moving around, much easier to click the defender, part of that is that defender sprite is huge, and also much slower.

GL is also IFF I believe. M56 mounted gun is fucking good, and I refuse to be told its not. It is situantional, yes, but definetly not "bad" yes its not M2C deathbeam good, but it fills a support role. Also, sentries are IFF, but that is hairsplitting I suppose.

Anyway, enough hairsplitting your prior statements.

All I want to see is benos that are more accessible to newer players. The learning curve on xeno is quite steep, leading to many to claim that marine is moar fun because...reasons. I firmly believe, from my experiences on both sides of the game, most xeno castes are a pain in the ass to play, as the gameplay loop for them is much more punishing. Yes, a powergaming beno is unkillable. But a mediocre beno is literally just KD padding. Look at the names you see in the average round, and the benos that get the endgame pat on the back, its the same players 90% of the time, due to the fact that learning xeno enough to survive is quite hard, and when you die, you are left out in the cold, no larva, no hope, you die as a marine in even a slightly decent place, you most likely will survive, and can then either medapc to max combat power, or fight on with the meds that can mitigate or fix most marines health issues from beno encounters.

[ObsidianCrow]

damn this thread isn't even talking about the change to survivor population and balance. everyone is just talking about marine v. beno balance. almost like no one knows what they are talking about

[CABAL]

snip

Because marine vs beno balance is basically a survivor vs beno balance too.
Do survivors have any other tools than a marine have? Sure, they got endurance, arguably weaker gear and obviously less numbers. PFC vs Warrior, or lurker is the same as Survivor vs Warrior, or Lurker.

If somebody discredits talking about marine vs xeno balance in context of survivors is almost like he knows nothing he wants to talks about, but acts smug to look cool.

While I do agree that last 3 posts were derailed, because somebody doesn't understand the difference between "benos being strong won't add any RP" and "benos being strong isn't adding any RP".

[ObsidianCrow]

Do survivors have any other tools than a marine have?

door shocking, db shooting, time management, making the judgement call to kill yourself, figuring out whether its time to bail or keep defending, finding other survivors